What Happens When We Die? A Near Death Experience Story | M.K. (Kathy) McDaniel

Will: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the skeptic metaphysician. Karen, I am excited for this one. I am too, but I'm like, wait a week excited for this one. What do you think is there life after death? Oh, 

Kathy: absolutely. Yeah. I want to hear all about it. I'm so curious about this. 

Will: Have you ever known anyone who's had a near death experience 

Kathy: near death?

Yes. Oh, I guess there's a difference. Well, I guess we'll find 

Will: out. Oh [00:01:00] yeah, I guess, I guess so. Well, our next guest is and Kate McDaniel. She's known as Kathy to her friends. She's the author of misfit and hell to heaven. Ex-pat and it's the story of how, when she was dying from lung failure in 1999, she was placed on a ventilator and into a drug induced coma.

Wow. A disturbing near-death experience happened. And then although mostly traumatic the overwhelming bliss of heaven and shifted her religious beliefs to a deep spiritual. Now Kathy credits here in stories of I a N D S members. That's the international association of near death studies for her eventual integration of the disturbing NDE and the ability to accept the mission that calls her reluctant return to earth, which I've heard a lot about.

reluctantly have to come back to well, let's not talk amongst ourselves any more. Let's bring the expert on Kathy. Thanks so much for coming on the show. 

Kathy: Oh, I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you. 

Will: I guess I have to say it again. I'm super excited to hear your story because[00:02:00] we've I have never met anyone that actually has undergone these experiences.

And as longtime listeners will know growing up, I've always been deathly afraid of death. That was totally, I didn't mean to do that at all. That was totally unintentional. So I was very, very afraid of death in now through the course of doing these interviews, we're starting to find that my fear is subsiding because I'm understanding more and more about what waits for us on the other side, but you have a.

Interesting story on your website. I did find an, the ability to download a sample of your books. I started reading it and immediately got sucked in. So let's, let's talk about your story first and foremost. Where. Do you come from, like, what's your background in some of this stuff? Did you have a preconceived notion of life after death?

What were your religious beliefs? And then we'll move into the story from that, all the 

Karen: questions at once, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. One 

Kathy: sentence long. [00:03:00] Take a deep breath. All right. Well, it started off with my dad when he was about 20 years old, he was a pilot for the world war II scene and was shot down over the Philippines.

He landed upside down on the beach. His plane was on fire and being a good atheist. And there are no atheists in foxholes as you, if you remember that one, he called out to God and says, okay, if you're out there now is your chance. If, if you know, if you can save me from. Mass I'll become a Catholic. And so all my family, well, just then some fellows ran out from the jungle, lifted up the tail of his plane, cut him out of the plane, drug him into the, into the jungle and a medic putting back together enough to find his way back to Hawaii, which was a story in itself.

But when he got back, he was serious. And so, my mom and he were, had been married for a while. And then I came along and my sister and brother, and we were [00:04:00] raised as staunch Catholics. I mean, right. I think one week I went to a public school, but it was, it was a horrific experience. The kids were cheating on their exams and eating crayons and all kinds of weird stuff.

So I wanted to go back to the safety of the nuns and, you know, and, and, and everything was, was pre-planned. It was there that I learned as most good Catholics do that. There's a place called purgatory and a place called hell and purgatory. I don't know if there was near death experiences that started this rumor, but that, that all of us had to really go to purgatory unless you were like a mother Teresa or something, and it was there that you burned off your sins.

And then you eventually got out of purgatory, which is hell, but you get out of purgatory. It's kind of a state of mind thing. And if your inhale, you stay there forever because you choose to. Long story short. I bought into that. So my whole life up until the age [00:05:00] of 53, when I died, I believed that I'd go to purgatory and that during my life in the church, there's this, this math thing that goes on.

If you, if you do something bad, you're going to get 400 days of purgatory. If you do something good, you get 300. So is, is this math thing? When I got back, I thought, well, maybe I, I, I got messed up in the math somewhere, but I came to know that by going to purgatory, which was hell, which was horrible, which was full of the demons and the torture and different scenarios that I encountered that hell was, was a real place in my mind until.

At the end of that experience, I'll be glad to share some of these scenarios with you later or how I found out I was there, but later I went to heaven. I, I, at the end of this horrible experience, that was really seem never ending. I burst into heaven and was [00:06:00] told by my dear friend who had just died, that I had too much work left to do.

And that was the bum's rush. I yelled. No, that was the last thing I remember saying. And then waking up out of the coma. So I'll stop there and see what questions you come up with. 

Will: Okay. So you have told us now a lot. So let's go back and unpack a little bit. I do want to talk about your certain experiences, but in more detail, but first and foremost, you, you mentioned that purgatory. Is hell and that's the first time I've ever heard that I've heard that there's a heaven and hell.

And the purgatory is kind of some place in between that we spend some time in to, to burn off our sins or to to some people say to make a decision as to where we're supposed to be going. But to you, purgatory was hell, there's no difference between the two. 

Kathy: I can't imagine per hell being worse than where I was.

The, the bottom line is we make our own hell that God I learned just from that short [00:07:00] stint in having and from my ions buddies that, that God is all loving and all forgiving period exclamation point. He, God does not condemn anybody. And we do not need to be forgiven. We're given a life review where we can kind of check out how we did, but Well, I thought that I was going to go to hell and I wasn't disappointed, but now I know that I don't have to go.

And that's my message is to come back and say to people, you know, you need to kind of think about this, but I made my own health from my own life experiences. The things that happened to me in my life that were horrible. I drug them down there and just magnified them. And this is, this comes too, from the understanding that I have.

Hundreds of ions people. And about 15% of them have distressing near death experiences. That's all that have come forward. Any, any way. Nobody really wants to say I went to hell that's because there's a certain stigma [00:08:00] attached to that. But that's, that's, it's been confirmed that most people wake up and the bliss, they wake up and, and the white light of love and, and, and joy and lots of fun things to do.

And, you know, I, I, I took a detour, but it was what I found out my own choice. Hmm. 

Will: Let's start from the very beginning. . You got a particularly nasty, violent strain of the flu, right? Which is what puts you into this coma? 

Kathy: Right. Well, I got worse than that. I'm told that when you get the flu, a lot of people go into pneumonia. People used to die of complications of pneumonia.

That was never really defined. But what I found out is that The complications of pneumonia is really ARDS, which is acute respiratory distress syndrome. And that's what I had people who die of SARS, or usually COVID, it's this, this lung failure that [00:09:00] happens. And back then this is 22 years ago and I, I believe it's still the same.

It, they don't really know what triggers the arts. It's like, your body decides, oh, you're really sick. We're going to fill up your lungs with gooey white stuff. And, and then we're going to turn it into cement. Maybe that'll fix it. And of course it doesn't. And

no don't accept that diagnosis. What happens then is they told us that, or my family that was hovering about that, I had about a 38% chance of making it, that my body had to decide that it was going to live. And in that case, it starts draining it off. Well, you know, they prayed like crazy. They had the prayer chain going around the world and all that stuff.

And I did come out of the coma going into the coma is a lot more interesting just before they put me out because I obviously couldn't breathe and it was getting worse. And [00:10:00] the doctor said, we're going to put you into this, this coma to keep you comfortable. We don't want you're pulling your tubes out or getting all freaked out when we do these horrible things to keep you alive.

So, just go to sleep. You won't remember a thing. Well, here I am 22 years later and that NDE is just as fresh in my mind as it was then that that's because it was happening in my consciousness, in my soul. And that was unaffected by the drug, because I remember nothing about the procedures they did, but the NDE I did.

So, they, they said, okay, we're putting you out. I was really interesting. The ball was coming down for 1999 to make it 2000. My dad, they straight up shoveled everybody out of there. And my dad gave me a thumbs up through the window. I gave a thumbs up back. 

Will: .

Okay. So listener, we are having all kinds of technical challenges. [00:11:00] Kathy, you keep saying it to you. Can you explain what's going on? Because it's kind of freaking me out. I'm not going to lie. 

Kathy: Well, I found out after I'd been back for a while that I would drive up to like, I'd be driving at night and when I'd get to a stop sign, the overhead light would go out.

This happened almost every time. And I thought, geez, they need to change the bulbs in this town, you know? But then other, I would tell people that and they'd say, oh yeah, that's just the N D. And I said, what do you mean? They said, well, you come back with all kinds of electrical problems. And as I was explaining in our conferences, it's hysterical because you have all 500 people sitting in a room and microphone doesn't work and the lights are flickering.

And everybody just understands that. Kind of one of those perks you get when you get back makes 

Will: it really challenging to do a show. 

Kathy: I know I've had that happen so many times. I'm sorry. 

Will: Oh no. It's, it's, it's actually, it adds to the flavor. So if you're watching the video and you see that Karen and [00:12:00] I have switched roles, it's because we had two computers going completely haywire.

We're going to try to push through, but if nothing else, this will make some good, some good stories. So, I, I'm trying to think back on where we left off. 

Kathy: Well, I was just going into the coma and they told me I wouldn't remember a thing. 

Will: That's right. Okay. So, and you said that you didn't remember anything of the procedure, but you did remember your NDE.

So what, what caused you to die? 

Kathy: Well, 

Will: The fluid in your lungs, it finally caught up 

Kathy: with you. Okay. Now I gotta bring you up to date on something else. Near-death experience can be somebody who drowns in there. They're dead technically for 20 minutes, or it can be a situation like in a coma where your consciousness kind of wanders off, you know, it's I dunno if it's board or what, but, but your consciousness can [00:13:00] drift.

I mean, there are people have out of body experiences all the times. They don't die, but anyway, I must have wandered off is all I can say because I was, I woke and it was completely dark. I couldn't hear anything. And I thought you can imagine what I thought. I didn't know if I was standing on something. I was afraid to move.

And I thought, well, I guess I'll just wait here and see if something happens. And it did, it started getting a little lighter and I thought, okay. Cause I thought I was in the car. But I thought, okay, it's getting a little lighter, but it's kind of a reddish reddish kind of glow. Maybe the sun's coming up. I don't know.

But then it got kind of Misty and foggy and warm and something smelled bad. And then I started hearing these little moans and shrieks in the background as it got lighter and I thought, oh, this can't be good. And then all of a sudden scared me half to death. I didn't know I [00:14:00] was already on the other side.

This voice booms out, just like a Bela Lugosi movie. I don't remember if you know those, but it was, you know, where you are and my mind's racing. And the only thing I could come up with was hell and there's whoa. A horrible laugh came back. Well, I don't know about you, but I turned and I ran right into the darkness.

I didn't care if I was going to bump into a wall. I just had to get away from that thing. It was awful. And so as I, I stepped into the darkness and started running again, it started getting lighter and I found myself when I stopped and I found the light was now still a glow reddish glow, but I can make out buildings.

And it looked to me like some sort of, of action figure movie, where they blew up New York city with a bomb, with an atomic bomb or something. And I thought that's what happened. There was an atomic bomb. [00:15:00] And then I just woke up from being, I don't know where I am, but there was fires and there was shrieking and, and big, big, huge pieces of concrete from the buildings laying all cattywampus, rebar, sticking up all over the place.

And I thought. I need to find some hiding place. I don't know where I am. So I found this big chunk of concrete that had fallen against another. It made kind of a V. So I tucked in there and I thought, what am I going to do? I mean, I'm a survivalist. So I thought, okay let's just see what's going on. I was quiet.

And then I kind of saw what looked like another person over behind a pile of something. And so I just yelled out. Hello, hello. Is anybody there? And I said, maybe we should get together and find some water or food or start a fire. The old girl scout thing kicked in and he just yelled back with his mournful tone.

We are all [00:16:00] alone here and I didn't really know what that meant, but I knew he wasn't going to come out and get with me. And then something horrible scuttled by. And again, I watched too many horror movies as a child, but it seemed like it sounded like huge spiders or something. And I was terrified is that that's, that's a minuscule word, but I thought I better get out of here.

There are other things I'll tell you. I don't flesh it all out because it was so long. It's all in the book in great detail. There were other beings that came toward me. And anyway, I decided I better get out of there. And I went to reach and climb up this wall and I fell and it got dark again. And then the lights came on and I was someplace else.

And this happened over and over. One time I was, there was very, obviously a demon there that was I still didn't know where I was and I, I never felt dead. I always felt like it was me. And of course there were no mirrors. So I couldn't [00:17:00] see, and I didn't have a watch. So I didn't know what kind of time was happening.

Over there. There is no time. It's just like this eternal now. So you have no idea. It's like being in a Las Vegas casino. You walk in in the afternoon, there's no lights, there's no nothing. And you, all of a sudden, you think, oh, I'm kind of hungry and it's two o'clock in the morning. Well, it was that kind of discombobulation that I felt the time was one of 

Will: any sense at all of how long does this whole thing took when 

Kathy: I got back and I'm laying, I was really incapacitated to say the least when I got back.

So I had a lot of thinking time and I tried to play it out back in my mind. And I figured about two years is what it felt like between walking and walking on this endless road. I would do that for, oh, just a long period. I was exhausted. And then boom, I come into some other scene. It was weird, you know?

I mean, what else can I say? But one time, [00:18:00] this demon I found myself plopped down and think a big foot except really mean kind of thing. And he told me that he had a deal for me that I could get out. If I would just do this one thing, I was anxious to get out. I said, sure, what is it? And he says, well, I want you to cut down this Blackberry field.

And all of a sudden appears this huge Blackberry field, as far as you can see. I don't know if you've ever been in one, but they've got big, long, thick streamers that go with thorns all over them. And they're very thick and they're very difficult in my life. I've lived near many of them and I've had to dig them out and cut them down.

So that was one of the worst things, I guess I got a thought of, anyway, he gives me these little Lee's little kindergartners scissors and says, okay, you cut that all down and I'll let you. I thought you jerk your play on with me. I felt like a cat and a mouse thing. You know, I know this sucks. I mean, what kind of, anyways it fine.

So I kneeled down, I'm getting all scratched up and I start [00:19:00] non on this darn cane and it took some time he's giggling over there and I'm cutting, cutting. And finally it cut loose. I thought, okay, I got nothing. You know, I've got no place to go. So I threw it to one side is stuck cause I was completely surrounded.

And that darn thing grew back. I don't know. I looked up at that thing and he's just having a good time. He thought that was so funny. He says, you need to despair. You need to get up, get, just get over the getting out. You're not, you're not getting out. Give up. I said, no, I'm not. I leaned down and I start cutting again.

The scene changes. It was so hard to explain how distressing that is, because you just think you're getting used to one situation and they got worse each time. One of the worst ones, I guess was I boom, the lights go on. And I thought, Ooh, lights. That's that's interesting. And I thought, where am I? And there's this big, huge, long halls really long.

And then [00:20:00] there was two doors, one on either side and a big hallway. It looked like I said, oh, I'm in a hospital. I started smelling that smell. You get in the hospital. And I thought, okay, which door shall I go on? At least maybe I can find a way out, but I looked up cause I heard this thump, thump, thumping noise.

And there's another big demon down there at the end of the hall. But he's got a big long like club thing and he's coming straight at me. So I panicked and I started to go one way. And then I thought, well, maybe I should go this way, but boom, he's right there. It took him no time at all. And he said you got a job.

I said, good job. And he says, yeah, you're going to go in that room over there. And you're going to pick up what they give you. And you're going to take it across the hall and you're going to put it in that room there. That's your job. And I thought, okay, I'll play along. You know, maybe I can find a back door out.

One of these, th these, I mean, I was not going to give up. So anyway, he stood there with his arms across his chest and pointed, and I went in this room and I went in and I thought, what the heck? There was all these gurneys with [00:21:00] obviously women laying on them. Then they had gowns over them and their legs were splayed.

And they had gowns over those. And there were people on stools sitting in front of going between their legs. And I thought okay. And all of a sudden this doctor raises his hand, it's all bloody and stuff, and he didn't turn around. He just raised his hand and I just stood there and he turned around, he says, get over here.

And I said, okay. So I went over and they were doing abortions. And so he takes this poor little desk, desecrate, a baby, and what was left of it and put it in my arm. I was completely shocked. I was a pro-lifer on earth. And I had worked for a group that, that helped women any way we could help them, so they didn't have to have abortions.

And so I looked at this and he just said, take it out. And so I stumbled out into the hallway. The demon was there. He pointed to the other room and I staggered into there. And it was like this huge, I keep saying this Costco warehouse full of light and [00:22:00] piles and piles, you know, 10, 15 feet tall of all these afforded babies.

And I thought it was just too horrendous for me. I couldn't stand it. I put the little thing down and I went back in the hall and he says, get back in there. I says, I'm not going, I'm not going to do that. And he just smiled. And he says, you know what? You're asking for something worse. And I said, what could be worse?

So he picked up the club and I close my eyes. And boom, I'm in another spot. In between sometimes I was walking on this really long road, it was just dirt and not even gravel, just kind of rocks and all around me. The whole landscape, as far as I could see was just kind of gray and more rocks, maybe piles of rocks maybe a dead tree standing and nothing as far as I could see it at one time, I kept trying to keep my sense of humor.

That's the only thing. That's the best thing you can do, but there's nobody else has a [00:23:00] sense of humor there. Believe me, I thought, well, maybe it's a big treadmill and all I'm going to do, you know, for God knows how long I didn't say God, because it did not come into my head. God was not allowed there. I just was walking and walking and walking and again, toward the end, I didn't know it was going to be the end, but I finally came to what was it like a village or something?

There were people. Milling about, they looked like it was a homeless camp or something. Cause all their clothes were rags and they were murmuring to themselves. And I thought this is dangerous. This is a dangerous place. So I thought if I can just keep my eyes down, I'll kind of stagger my gate, get around and through and get on the other side.

I'll be okay. That didn't happen. They must have sensed. I was there because they stopped moving. And again, zombie movies don't watch Somby movies. They came and the, the men, they had trousers came around [00:24:00] me in a big circle. The women backed off and they attacked me. They a group attacked me sexually. I didn't, you know, people say, how do you know you didn't have a body.

When someone got, when you were in grade school and somebody went like this to punch you in the nose, but they didn't didn't you go? Oh, you know, I mean, because you, you see it happening, you feel it happening. It's hard to describe, but I just knew I was a wreck and one guy leaned over, they also had their skin kind of fallen off.

It was gross. And he said, we all have aids and now you have it too, but you can't die. 

Karen: Wow.

Kathy: I thought, okay, what else can happen? Well, this lady came up and said, you're one of us now get up and follow me. So I did. And the scene turned into this snow. And cold as hell is a real thing and it was [00:25:00] snowing and we had hardly any clothes left and we were trudging. I can remember it get deeper and deeper.

And there was this long I could kind of go above myself and see this long line of maybe 20 women all following in one another's footsteps thinking, when are we going to get wherever we're going? And I knew it wasn't going to be good, but it was really cold. And so we finally got to this shack thing with no insulation winds whipping through, and we're all inside there and she's just this door and then says, okay, now we wait for customers.

Karen: I thought, 

Kathy: well, expletive, this, this is, this is just going from bad to worse. So I said to her, I don't know, maybe say it, but I said, you know, I've been here a long, long time, and this seems a particularly depressing situation. Isn't it? She says, oh no, it's Christmas on earth. That's always the worst day in hell.

 I thought hell. Ah, okay. So I did what any good little Catholic girl [00:26:00] would do? I started singing my favorite carrot, Christmas, Carol. It's a way in a manger. And I started singing with this little voice and the lady was across behind some of the other ladies and she says, stop back. And I kept going away in a major and somebody else joined in no crib for his head.

And she starts yelling again, shut up, you guys. And then everybody started singing in the little Lord. And when we got to that part, she left at me screeching. No, and I just closed my eyes and it was bright light. And. It's like being back there now is so nice. And you just, this, this feeling of love, swimming, and love, it's all I can think of every wonderful thing you've ever imagined.

Every good feeling you've ever had. Excuse my voice. I'm recovering from pneumonia. Everything that you can think of that's wonderful times a million. And I was just so happy in everything that had happened before was gone. I was just in this bliss and happiness and, and I was looking [00:27:00] around and, and I had gotten ill because I'd been taking care of my best friend for nine months.

He had leukemia and he was having a stem cell transplant. That's how I got so run down, but he was standing there. He looked great. I mean, I'd only seen him a month before and he, you know, his hair was gone and it was all purple and blotchy. How did he look? Great. And, and he was smiling at me and I caught side of this, like a table or something with a big book on it.

And then he was standing in front of like a little doorway and I'm looking around and I was so happy. 

Karen: And, 

Kathy: I thought, oh, he doesn't know he's dead. How funny? You know? And he started laughing and I thought, wait a minute. He does know he's dead. And if he's dead, then I must be dead. Oh, thank God.

I'm dead. And I'm in heaven with him. And this is great. You know, where are the angels? Where are the butterflies and stuff was, you know, what's with this room. And he just said, now, Mary Kay, you've got too much left to do.[00:28:00] And I thought they're throwing me out. And I just said, no, at the top of my lungs, before that happened, I flashed on him showing me something in this big book.

And, and, and me saying to him, oh no, that's going to be too hard. I want to stay here with you. And that's when he threw me out. So, boom, I wake up and there's bright light and there's these people milling around and I think, oh my goodness, I'm back in hell. But then somebody says, oh, look, mom's back. And I thought, what?

And I can't move and I'm hot. And I can't talk. And I think. This is still gotta be hell. And, and then they started coming around and, and I'm so confused. And my daughter looks over and says, mom, you've been really, really sick. We thought we were going to lose you. And, and, and you're back and you're fine.

And I thought, fine, this is not my definition of fine. I was just where I was. [00:29:00] And I couldn't talk, they still had the gadget in my throat. I got my nice scar to prove it. And I couldn't talk. And it was about five days before I could talk. And that was really a blessing because I was so angry with these people.

They said, oh, we prayed. And we prayed and we got you back. And all that. Wasn't what I wanted to hear. In fact, I was so ingrained. Several months later, my mom was saying, oh, you have no idea how many people were praying for you. Here's all the cards and stuff. And I says, would you do me a favor the next time?

Cause I was always bitching about it the next time this happens to me, promise me, you won't save me. She said, oh, don't worry, honey. We won't.

But there I was. And I had gotten down to 86 pounds. You just have a nasal tube. And so I, all my muscles were gone. I had no muscle mass. I was literally skin and bones, so I could move this finger and blink. And that was it. And 

Will: how long, how long were you in the [00:30:00] coma? 

Kathy: Three weeks. Just a day or two short of three weeks.

Will: So in three weeks you lost all your muscle mass. And 

Kathy: I only weighed like 105 going in, so I didn't, you know, it, it it was not good. So. Well, I was like a ragdoll. I couldn't move at all. They had to tie me into a chair to try and get my muscles in my back to work. And it was nothing but cramps. It was just awful.

It was a terrible hell was bad, but this was right up there. This was bad for the month that I was. They finally moved me after a week. I had to perform a miracle. I had to walk 10 steps by myself as pretty funny in the book. It wasn't funny at the time, but. By myself and, oh, that was awful. But anyway, they finally put me in a physical rehab facility for a month and my insurance said, you have to do everything that they say you're going to do every week, or we're going to pull the plug and you're going to go to a convalescent hospital and die.

So I [00:31:00] had them, I mean, I like having options.

I'll pick number one, threw me in an ambulance and I spent a month trying to learn how to swallow, how to feed myself, how to crawl, how to walk at a button, how to do everything again, all have to watch like a baby. It was very humiliating. I was a very independent person and to be so dependent was just cruel.

It was awful. And by the end I finally got to get out of there. And my pulmonologist and the main doctor both came individually to me and said, there's no reason you like. I'll never ever understand how you made it much less are starting to recover. And I said to the main doctor, I says, well, there was a lot of prayer involved, you know, his prayer is that.

Yeah. Yeah. But I'll never understand. There's no way you should be here. They call me the miracle kid. So then I got to go home where I didn't [00:32:00] have a home because I'd been living up in Seattle, taking care of my friend. And the meantime uh, someone I'd been dating had been there every day in the hospital.

And there's a story behind what they told me as I was leaving heaven that had to do with him. So I moved in with him and tried to get my life back. I mean, It took a full year of me walking a little farther every day up and down Hills in that area to be able to go a great distance without having to stop.

And he, because I have, I've got a really damaged long with lots of scarring and, and, and the pulmonologist said now for the rest of your life, I wish you would carry. He had an x-ray. And back in those days, they were like three feet by two feet. He stole out of the hospital. I said, you need to carry this somewhere near you.

At all times. I said, you're kidding. He says, no, because every time you, they have an x-ray of your lungs, they're going to want to do a lung transplant. And I thought he was being a little dramatic. But to this day I was in the hospital a month ago because [00:33:00] of my pneumonia. They didn't know what it was yet.

And they took all these lung x-rays and they came back in and they said, well, we think you have a pulmonary emboli. And I says, you mean I've toasted. Then they said, pretty much, we're going to try and do this. And I turned to my, my boyfriend who's with me, I went

and they said that the nurses said, you don't understand what's going on. I said, no, you don't understand what's going on. I finally got my work done and I get to go home. I was so thrilled. And then they came back and I said, no, it's pneumonia. And so they did more tests and came back and said, oh, you know, it's pneumonia.

Another doctor when I had my back X, my back surgery said that I had lung cancer. I said, no, I tell him. And she asked you do, you're gonna die. And I says, no, I'm not. So they did more tests. Pneumonia. So, that's how my, I mean, it's a miracle I'm here at all, but 22 years later, I mean, I, I just keep what I'm [00:34:00] doing is podcast pipe podcasts, and I'm up to almost 50 of them, which is great.

Because I get my message out to more people, because I feel like there's this invisible number of people out there that I'm supposed to touch. And every time I do want, and I get a letter back that says, wow, you changed my life. Things are really different. I got one more. And when I get to that final one, man, I'm out of here.

So, 

Will: so what was, I'm left with the question of, you said that he showed you something in the book you flashed before you came back and you said, no, no, that's too difficult. What was in the book? 

Kathy: Well, let's see if they tell you that. Uh, It sucks. Some people get to remember parts, you know, parts of it, not me. They made me figure it out. So it took 10 years for me to find the ions group, all these synchronicities started happening and the voice you get, the voice that comes in. Most [00:35:00] people hear the voice from the time you were a child, you think at your guardian angel, your conscience or something, but it's really your higher self God, whatever you want to call it.

And it's really strong when you get back. So the voice made me go to the ions meetings, kicking and screaming until I finally found enough people there that said, oh, we need to hear more people with these distressing near-death experiences. Nobody will come, come through and tell us what they're about and what they mean.

Uh, There's a woman named Nancy Evans, Bush. She had one. Brilliant woman. She's just written her third book and she concluded that the distressing ones were for the brave souls, the brave people who would go into these depths of hell and, and bring back the message that you don't need to go there. So I, I prefer being a brave soul to a damned soul and you know, and that was, it was an upgrade.

I took it. 

Will: So then you didn't see, like you get a lot of people who [00:36:00] say they, they had a near death experience. The first thing they saw is they saw themselves out of their body looking down at them. And then also there was this tunnel that opened up and then they went to towards the light where all of their loved ones were waiting for them, things like that, nothing like that happened to you.

Kathy: And that doesn't happen to everybody. You know, that's the people that want to come forward and tell you their story over the, you know, the last, well, let's see, 12 years that I've been in ions, I've heard a lot of stories and they don't, they don't all end up like that or they don't start off like that.

It's just, people don't really want to share that because then they feel less than, or sinful or something like that. So it's, it's not that common really. When you boil it down, when you've talked to people about their experiences, are they all similar? And that they go kind of like from scene 

Karen: to scene, to scene.

Kathy: No, a lot of people for every person, it's all different. It's like everybody's life experiences is the same. We're all human. And we get born and we die and we go to school [00:37:00] up there. Our little human brains cannot conceive of the vastness of eternity. And from what I hear from this person, and that person's like somebody from Oklahoma and somebody from California, they all have a different idea of what the United States looks like.

Well, these people, a lot of them go to school. They, or they, they just fly like Superman all out into the universe or other universes summary. A lot of people reincarnate. In fact, I've been told most people reincarnate that we all start off in heaven as pieces of God or all one consciousness, all one spirit.

And we decide to come to earth or other places to learn things because in heaven, you know, everything, everybody is got the same consciousness. Everybody knows what everybody else is thinking. You know, I'm not going to say it's boring, but, but some people choose to come down and learn. What does it mean to be empathetic?

What does it mean? To be honest, what does it mean to be? And [00:38:00] they choose to all these life lessons they want to learn. They've got their soulmates, they come down with and learn stuff and there's good stuff you want to learn. And there's also other things you would kind of curious about and we help one another.

When we're here, when we get everything done, we go home. The way I hear it is you, you kind of sit around with your homeys, you know, how was that experience? You know? I joke and say, my group's going to meet in a bar. We're going to have really nice wine and a lot of free hors d'oeuvres and everybody's going to sit and chocolate and say, wow, wasn't that a kick when this happened?

Generally, when, like, when I meet up with people like you guys. We sh we plan that. We plan that when we were all in heaven and just said, you know, I'm just going to touch we'll touch base once or twice when we're on earth. And we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll feel familiar with those people will feel this kinship with them.

We'll feel comfortable with these people. That's how we know [00:39:00] they're one of our soulmates. So being gotten that out of the way and yeah, I'll see you in the bar. So I have one more question

Will: before 

Kathy: you cut me off. I want 

Karen: to get it in 

Kathy: all the time. You're saying that the messages to tell people, or one of the messages you have is that you don't have to go to hell. So how do you choose? Because from what you've explained to your experience, it didn't seem like you knew that was an option.

You're just like. That's why I, because I believed it. I live my life believing that. And so, I went, but, but the people and so interesting, all the atheists and heaven, you know, all the come on, what's going on, but we manifest what we believe. And if you manifest, you're going to have. Yes. What, but if you [00:40:00] know and manifest that God is all forgiving and all loving, and that you're going to go to heaven.

It's a slam dunk. Everybody goes, unless you choose not to I'm saying don't choose that. No one, your heart, please. Somebody listened to me in your heart. You know, say, I believe that God's spirit source is all loving and all forgiving. And by golly, I'm going to, like my sister said, I'm going to jet straight to Jesus's arms, you know?

And I said, you better have a plan B before I heard all that, all this 

Will: I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said that was a lot of people have said the same type of thing. Wait, you manifest your own reality, whether you're here on earth or beyond. And it seems like. And then one of the questions I had here was does your mindset dictate where you go and you mentioned that you were pro-life prior to your accident and you were very religious, your father grandfather, I'm sorry.

I forgot who it was. That that pledged himself to God when he was in that [00:41:00] cockpit. Right? So, so your mindset was very much, this is what Roman Catholicism tells me is going to happen after I die. So I have to be a good person or a bad person. And if I bet my bad person, I'm going to go to hell. I'm not sure if you watch the movie, what dreams may come hold, read the book.

One of my favorite authors, Richard Matheson wrote that wrote the book that the movie is based on. And it really talks about how we, whatever we believe will happen when we pass is what we make happen. So to hear you say that, because I honestly, Kathy, at first, I thought you're going to say. This is a reality.

If you're not good, you're going to hell. Right. And it could be if that's your mindset, but, really everyone that we've talked to with over the last, I don't know how many interviews have always said that God, the universe all the sourced it's we it's all goodness. And it's all, we're all part of that.

Goodness. And it's really about living your life, knowing that you're here for a purpose and doing things that are good for [00:42:00] your soul's evolution and for the evolutions of all of those around you. So that when you do go home, like you mentioned, we are all reunited with each other as one. So I'm honestly so glad you mentioned that.

Kathy: Yeah. That's, that's true. Now there is I'm told a life review and I wasn't there long enough to get one, but the purpose of that is just to show you how. On the on, and nobody judges you you get to feel what, everything that you did or did in interaction with everybody else. You get to feel how that felt.

So if you were mean to somebody that you'd get to feel that, and if you were great to somebody, but that's not a judgment, that's just a cause and effect, you know? So people say, well, that's not fair. You know, people are bad, they should be punished well, it's, that's not a punishment, but that's an awareness that what you did was unkind.

When I was back for awhile, I was so scared. There was still so much of that, that hell thing that was hanging in the back of my head. And I, I, I [00:43:00] prayed to God one time. I said, look, I know, I know I don't have to go to hell. I know I can go to heaven, but there's this little bit of me that needs a little, something extra, a little booster, because, so could you give me just a few things that I can do positively every day instead of thou shalt nots, what came over a period of months, but it was to be loving and.

Merciful and forgiving, encouraging, grateful non-judgemental and useful. So I had that made up on a bookmark and I'm passing them out like cards. That's the positive thing. So every morning when I get up, I got my picture of Jesus. And I just say, please help me to be and put that mindset. I still fumble around.

I'm still in a human body with a human mind. I still get angry at people, but I can call myself up short now and just say, it's all good. That person wanted to learn a lesson. I'm supposed to be learning a lesson here. I wonder what that is. You know, and you don't feel like a [00:44:00] victim anymore. That's the big thing, you know, why is God doing this to me and to say, oh, I chose that.

That's interesting. You know, it just makes your life a lot lighter. 

Will: Right? So do you consider yourself to be a very religious person? 

Kathy: Now it goes away because you're a spiritual person. Religion is. To exclusive rather than inclusive, there's too many man-made rules. I have a heck of a time. My family still all go to mass and I'm when I'm there visiting, I'll go with them.

But I just can't say the prayers. I mean, Jesus sits at the right hand of the father and the crown on the Thrones. And then there's no Thrones folks why I did one of these, one of these things in a Bible belt, you should have seen what came back. Woo. People with all these quotes from the Bible, you know, if you just called on the name of the Lord, it's like, okay, whatever works for you, you know, I'm not judging [00:45:00] anybody.

I know it worked for me for a long time sorta. So yeah, I'm, I'm not here. I'm just here to share my ex. Yeah. 

Will: And I love the message. Cause it's really important one, right? That you, you do. We create our own reality, whether it's on this earth, in this reality or once we pass on, whatever you believe is what's going to happen.

Whether now, or then it's really up to you. 

Kathy: Yeah. It's a lot easier that way. And people's pets are up there too, for anybody who is listening. Oh, yay. 

Will: I've heard that. Yeah. I've heard that before. I believed it, but I do now because you said something. 

Kathy: Oh yeah. People see their dogs and cats and birds and all kinds of stuff.

One lady was uh, she used to raise dogs I guess. And when she went up, she had this pack of dogs that came out of nowhere down. They ran down the beach together. She was so sorry to go back, you know, back home because all her pets were up in heaven. She it's. It's cool to think that um, It's all going to be so good.

[00:46:00] It's just, if we can just get through this, I hate to use those words, but just lighten up, you know, and it's going to be all right. 

Will: I hate to throw a wrench in all of it, but if I don't think that my pits up there, maybe he won't be up there. Right. Because if their mindset, right, you just said that our mindset is what dictates the there.

So if you don't believe it. Right. So, so what I would say is whatever you want it to be, let it be that if you want your pets to be there, they will be there, but you have no it right. 

Kathy: So yeah, you could have some pretty annoying pets. You don't want to, 

Will: I know a couple.

So I honestly could hear, because sit in, listen to your stories forever, and I'm going to buy your book because I'm fascinated by all of it.

Follow up with the question though, because I know it's going to be on the mind to some people you were an induced coma and you said you, you felt like it was real being of a body, but [00:47:00] how, how is sure, can you be that this wasn't just some coma induced dream that you live through for the three weeks you were in there?

Cause they say that sometimes when you're in a coma, your brain doesn't stop. Right. That you're still living in there. And some people talk to people in comas to try to be at peace with them or have them come out. So how was your, are you that this experience was exactly what you say and not just some coma induced dream.

Kathy: Okay. So 22 years ago, I had a dream about what you don't remember dreams 

Karen: since the. 

Kathy: Near-death experience has to do with your consciousness. It's experienced with your soul, which had the experience, not my brain. So it's seared into my consciousness. Just like anything else that ever happened in my consciousness.

I can't make it go away. It's just as fresh as it was yesterday, but I don't remember [00:48:00] dreams for more than a day or two. 

Will: Okay. That's a great point. So then to follow up on that, and I don't know the answer because I'm not a doctor, I don't know what's on the other side, but could it be just the, but this is a very traumatic experience you said.

So you say so in your bio and in your website, one things we do remember are traumas, right? Traumas are indelible in our minds. We cannot get rid of them. So could that have something to do with it? Or, I mean, you, you really feel this is an out-of-body experience or near death. 

Kathy: Yes. And it's not just me. I would suggest somebody get Eben Alexander's book.

He was a, oh, he is a neurosurgeon. He was an atheist. He had a blood bleed in his brain. He was flat-lined. He went away for a very long time in heaven and he came back and he wanted to see his EEG, his EKG and all these other things. And he looked at that and he said, there is [00:49:00] no way my brain was working at that time.

How can I still remember in every detail of what happened? So you find somebody like that. You don't have to listen to me go find some of those doctors that had, had happened to them. And of course he's no longer new. 

Will: Right. And that, thank you. That, that is a perfect answer to the question. So I, and I know we talked a little bit earlier about whether or not there are two types of NDEs.

One is when you're clinically declared dead and others, where you, you just kind of you're you're away for a bit. So you were not declared clinically dead, right? You were just, 

Kathy: no, they, they just call my, my family and said, we're losing her. You have to come say goodbye. Okay. 

Will: And did you flat-line at all during the time that you went to coma?

No, you you're 

Kathy: doing because they just waited and waited and waited. And it was interesting because when I got back my mom, when I could finally talk again, she said, you [00:50:00] saw Patrick's. And I said, I just, yeah. I said, yeah, she says, I could tell you always were just laying there with no expression on your face.

And we were talking to you, we'd talk to you about the dog and this and that. But all of a sudden, your face lit up and you were trying, you were talking to somebody even with the ventilator in your mouth or wherever it was. And she says, I said, Patrick, you can't have her. You send her back.

I blame her for this she's 94.

Will: Well, so I find it interesting that when you started singing the Christmas, Carol, and you got to that part, that's when you transitioned from having. To heaven, which, which goes further to illustrate the point that your mindset is what decides, what happens. At that point you [00:51:00] started focusing less on the negative side of your belief systems and more towards the positive, which then allowed you to go into that side of things.

Okay. Well that, 

Kathy: and I think I, I chose that experience for some bizarre reason. I'll have a talking to with myself when I get home, but I chose that to, to be able to come down and do this, which is the work I'm doing, which is all, no, that's going to be too hard. It was like when I first. You know, I, when I went to the meetings and I finally got the guts to tell my story, and at the end they clapped, I thought they were going to throw me out.

And they said, you know, more people need to hear that story, you know? And so I said, okay, so it took years, but finally enough people said, you've got to write a book, you've got to write a book. And finally I thought, okay, all right, already, I'll write a book. And that was just a year and a half ago that I published and it's been 22 years.

So it's taken all that time, which was very difficult for me [00:52:00] to get to this point. And now this is the fun part, you know, I, I gutted it out and now I've got the fun part. And again, I can see, and when I got out of the hospital, I thought, how in the world, I can't even take care of myself. How am I going to spread a message or something?

It was just inconceivable, but 

Will: I'll follow up question because it just occurred to me as you were talking.

Karen: If 

Will: the mindset is what gets you to, what happens after you die? Does someone who is convinced they are a good person, but is really completely shitty person. Like there's someone who has been evil, but believes that they're not evil when they pass Hitler. Like Hitler, for example, is Hitler in heaven. 

Kathy: Well, a lot of people ask me that question and all I know is what I've been told about the life review.

And if you are privileged and [00:53:00] allowed to feel every single feeling of fear and joy that you caused in people's lives, I would say. If he had to go through and feel the pain of every one of those Jewish people that were killed and their families and all that, he's probably still in the middle of his life review.

Will: Got it. Okay. So then you're saying that Hitler didn't necessarily have to go to a place of eternal torment, but rather he is reliving all of the things he's done to other people. And that's kind of the punishment that you go through when you pass. 

Kathy: That's what I've been told. I didn't make this stuff up.

I just learned this. 

Will: So how about those that, that do wrong on this life and then really feel it? I did wrong. I recant I'm so sorry. And trying to make amends. Is that something that they'll have to go through again when they pass or have they now covered it and I'm asking for 

Kathy: myself, no, I don't know.

Your guess is as good as mine, [00:54:00] but my thought from what I, again, from what I've been taught by people that got to hang around and go on and look in the Akashic records and do all kinds of fun stuff that they chose those things. Okay. But sometimes you, you choose those things. So somebody else can be the.

It's like, it gets a little strange when you think there's no right or wrong, you know, this is earth and that's how we do things here. That's how we think. But for, for people to sacrifice themselves so that that person is allowed to learn this. It gets so way out there that sometimes my little brain says whatever, you know, I'll find out when I get there.

I really don't need to know all of this right now. But you know, those are all good topics and there's a lot of people that in the different books that are written in a different NDEs that you hear that can give you answers like that. They ask the questions, they got the answers. I just I'm 75. I really don't really want to learn [00:55:00] all everything.

Will: I know. Yelled. No. When you came back, but I, for one have to say thank you for coming back because your message is an important one, right? To, to have people understand that you don't have to live in dogma. You don't have to live in constant fear. God is not fear, right? This is the difference between the old Testament and the new Testament.

If we're talking about the Bible and Catholicism, right? to religious devotees thought process, Jesus die for our sins so that we wouldn't have to deal with the vengeful. God, right now we are, we are now dealing with a God of love. So why people still live in fear and torment? I understand because of what you just said, because we have to understand what's right and wrong and it's hard for the mind to make sense of something if we don't have that distinction, but 

as long as you model your life the week, like what would Jesus do? Right. WWD [00:56:00] J and J D I'm dyslexic. So as long as you model yourself and be a good person and know that you're trying to do the best you can. And don't dwell on the fact that, oh my gosh, I'm not, if I'm not a good person, I'm going to end up somewhere.

That's what makes a difference. And, and for that people like you, that coming, coming back to tell that story, I can understand why people applauded when you tell them. So thank you.

Well, Kathy, I could talk to you for forever. And like I said, I I'm going to buy your book because I'm incredibly interested in it. Now, if someone wanted to reach out to you, obviously I'll put the direct link to the book on Amazon, on our show notes, as well as all your social media platforms. But if someone wanted to reach out to you to talk more, get more information, or even buy the book, what, what's the best way for someone to reach out to you 

Kathy: probably to get on the website and that's www dot misfit and hell to have an ex-pat dot com.

And there's, there's a spot there [00:57:00] where you can, you know, there's an email there that'll go directly to me and then I can give them my personal email after that. 

Will: Okay. I will definitely put. On our show notes. So if you are looking to connect with her feel free to come to skeptic, metaphysician.com, where you can find her direct links and Cathy, I can't thank you enough for 

Kathy: coming on and talking to us.

Nice to meet you, Karen. Lovely to meet you 

Will: and Karen, thank you for, for coming and asking the important questions with me, 

Kathy: man. This was fantastic. 

Will: This really was right. And listen, we want to thank you specifically because there are a lot of options out there. We really appreciate that you chose us to hear the messages.

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