Unlocking the Secrets of Spiritual Enlightenment in 5 Minutes or Less

Will: [00:00:00] Karen? Yes. Can you imagine what it would be like to learn how to meditate from the Dalai Lama? Oh my God,

Karen: that would be amazing. . All right.

Will: That's like a dream. All right. Now what about seeing miracles performed by Sababa another dream, or even becoming friends with rom das? Wow. Well, it just so happens that our next guest did just that all.

and lots more. He has spent some time with some of the top names of the metaphysical and spiritual field names like Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, and even the late Mother Teresa. And he's agreed to talk to us. I don't know why, but he has somehow, and the best part is he's offering today a roadmap of sorts to the fastest and easiest ways to awaken if you've been looking for.

Then you have come to the right place cuz this show is about to drop some serious wisdom on you. Welcome to the skeptic meta.

Will & Karen: My name is Will and I'm [00:01:00] Karen. And unlike Molder and Scully, we both wanna believe so we've embarked on a journey of discovery. We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical world. We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. Even joined a coven of witches and wait, you joined a coven?

Yep. All in the interest of finding something, anything that will prove that there's something beyond this physical three-dimensional world we all live in. This is the.

Will: Today's story is about a boy and a fence. There once was a little boy who had a very bad temper. Well, his father decided to hand him a bag of nails and said that every time the boy lost his temper, he had to hammer a nail into the fence. On the first day, the boy hammered 37 nails into that fence. Well, the [00:02:00] boy gradually began to control his temper cuz he hated nailing those nails into the.

Well, over the next few weeks, the number of nails he was hammering into the fence slowly decreased. He discovered it was easier to control his temper than to hammer those dumb nails into that fence. Well, finally, the day came when the boy did not lose his temper at all. Well, he ran and told his father the news, and the father suggested that the boy should now pull out a nail every day.

He kept his temper under control. . Well, the boy was very excited to do this one. So the days passed, and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all of the nails were gone. Well, the father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence, and he said, you've done well, my son.

But look at the holes in the fence. That fence will never ever be the same. See when you say things in [00:03:00] anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say, I'm sorry. The wound will always still be there.

Well, if you haven't figured it out. The moral of the story is to control your anger and not say things to people in the heat of the moment that you may later regret. Unfortunately, some things in life, you're just not able to take back.

 Today's special guest is so many credits to his name, Karen. I'm kind of super intimidated right now. Yeah, I can't even

Karen: talk. . ,

Will: apparently. I'm not the only one. Well, his name is Jonathan Robinson. He's a psychotherapist. He's a bestselling author of 14 books and a professional speaker. He's reached over 200 million people around the.

and he's been translated into 47 languages and that is just scratching [00:04:00] the surface and

Karen: wait. You're sure we're not being pranked? This isn't just some dude pretending to be handed .

Will: Oh no. Believe me, he has made numerous appearance. Appearances on the Oprah Show. Oh my God, you're killing me. And on CNN n and lots of other national TV talk shows, his most recent book is called The Enlightenment Project, how It Went From Depressed to Blessed, and You Can Too.

And he shares the best methods, stories, and ideas he's learned from interviewing a hundred. The very top spiritual teachers like I just mentioned. Can we just start talking to him? No. Nope. Cause one more thing I gotta say. He's also the co-host of the Smash HIT Podcast, awareness Explorers, a show that I personally have been listening to for quite a while, so I could not be more thrilled to welcome this amazing guest of the show.

Jonathan, we have no words. Thank you for coming.

Jonathan: Well, thank you Will and Karen for that fun, uh, introduction.

Will: I, I mean, it's how do, how do you hold yourself so humbly when you've, you've done so many amazing things and experiences. Uh, I, I would lose my [00:05:00] mind.

Jonathan: Well, you know, uh, luckily I'm very aware of all my faults, which helps. But, um, hanging out with people who are more spiritual than you or have more bliss and love is very humbling as well.

Will: Oh, no doubt, no doubt. Uh, but I'm sure it must kind of come off like rub off on you though a little bit. Right? You've been, you've been, uh, surrounded by some of the best, most incredibly awakened, enlightened masters of, I mean,

Karen: the Dai Lama. Uh, that's like a dream. Oh my God. I can't even, I can't even imagine what that would be like.

What was that like

Jonathan: Well, you know, he is very much like a five year old kid, you know, he is very playful, has a great sense of humor, and then he has all the wisdom of the Dalai Lama, so that. Is a little bit intimidating, but ends up his sense of humor is so good that we just laughed a lot.

Karen: Oh, God, I've heard that.

Jonathan: um, he was very generous with his time with me and answered a lot of questions. And it was interesting because he also was [00:06:00] very interested in any negative feedback I could give him. , and I've noticed that about real sincere spiritual seekers and leaders that they want to know the truth.

They don't want, you know, people bowing down to them. That doesn't do them any good. They want to know what they could work on to be a very human being. And that's one of the reasons why I like to hang out with these people is that some of it did rub off and I did learn some stuff about myself,

Will: I mean, did you just

Karen: say that like, like, like anybody could hang out with them. .

karen_1_02-22-2023_170355: I

Will: like hanging out with these people, man. I like hanging out with

Karen: these people too. I.

Jonathan: Well, a, a quick story, you know, Ramm das, um, I wanted to interview him for a book back in the nineties, and, uh, I kept pursuing him writing letters, phone calls, everything. Finally, after like a year of this, he calls me up and says, um, you know, I'm Ramm Dass, and, and I know you've been pursuing me for an interview for a long time, and I just wanna know if you're on a mission from God or a complete [00:07:00] lunatic, and.

Will: That sounds exactly like rom

Doss.

Jonathan: so I convinced him I was on a mission from God. So he did the interview.

Will: Oh, that's fantastic. So, okay, what you're saying is a trick to getting high valued guests on the

show is to stalk them

Jonathan: Exactly. Exactly.

Karen: I can do

Jonathan: or be on a mission from God, one or the

other

Will: Oh, right. I mean, I think they kind of go hand in hand sometimes. Right? It depends on

Karen: the stalking. That's, I had a stalker once. No mission from God. Yeah. That, that

karen_1_02-22-2023_170355: would

Will: be the lunatic type of stalking.

We're talking, uh, mission from God, uh, blues Brothers type of stalking. Right. . well, you've had such opportunities that the normal human on this planet doesn't usually get, and you have graciously written them down in a book that people can have access to it Right now, we're gonna talk a a lot about that, but let's fast forward all the way to the end really fast.

We'll come back again, but the fast forward all the way to the end. What is the number one? Way to awaken spiritually

in your.

Jonathan: Well, the number one way [00:08:00] is actually very specific to you, so probably everybody listening to your show has found some time in their life where they felt very awake or a lot of love or peace or bliss. Maybe they were watching a sunset. Maybe they were petting their dog, maybe they were meditating and meditation.

And when you. Have that experience. I would suggest trying to figure out every detail you can about what does it feel like in my body? Where do I feel it? What's helping my mind to slow down what you know? A lot of the people that I interviewed didn't use the normal spiritual methods. They used methods that they had created that helped to open their heart and quiet their mind.

So the best method is the one that works for you. Has led in the past to you being open-hearted, loving and peaceful.

Karen: So is this something that you have to actively work towards? So you're talking about methods and what method works best for you, or can it just happen [00:09:00] to people?

Jonathan: It does occasionally happen to people, just like occasionally people win the lottery, but most people who earn a lot of money actually go to a job every day and. Um, I do have my five favorite methods for awakening in under two minutes of effort on my website, the enlightenment project.net. And, you know, I have a, an audio with those five methods and an ebook that I give away for free because the methods are getting better.

You know, a lot of people are using methods from 2000 years.

Will: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan: don't work so well nowadays. You know, most people don't use a, a computer from even 20 years ago. Why are they using spiritual methods from 2000 years ago? So in the last five years, a lot of methods have been invented that really are like power tools for quieting the mind and opening the heart.

And I think when more people know those approaches, that they'll just get a lot better.

Will: Well, we're definitely gonna add a link to that website [00:10:00] on our show notes. Mm-hmm. . So if you're interested in, in getting those five ways to awaken quickly, then just go to skeptic physician.com, go to his episode page, and you will see the links there. It'll I'm really interested in hearing some of these stories that you have of, of awakening. but before we do that spiritual awakening, sometimes we've spoken to people that have had very messy. Difficult awakenings.

Um, people are saying that it is like, a rebirth and we all know birth is always messy and difficult and challenging. So we've heard stories of people completely almost losing their minds, uh, leaving their jobs, leaving their families and trying to get in, getting a grip cause they thought they were going crazy.

is this something. We should expect as we become more enlightened, or is there a gentler way to go

into that good night?

Jonathan: Well, you know, the media likes the dramatic stories like Eckhart Tole or, or, uh, Byron Katie, who both awakened very [00:11:00] suddenly, but 99.8% of people. Awakened very slowly, like you and I and there, it's much easier to integrate. You know, sometimes there's, you know, a challenge like, uh, you know, you're not as triggered.

My wife, um, when she saw that I, I was no longer triggerable, it bothered her for a little bit. Like, I can't get you upset, you know, this is a

Will: press your buttons.

Jonathan: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, sometimes there's little challenges like that, but mostly, you know, awakening is about. Finding a place of inner peace, love, and joy inside you more and more consistently until it's there all the time.

And that doesn't cause that many problems unless, uh, you can't go to your job or something because of it. And I know I, I had one awaken anywhere for like two weeks. I really. Could not get out of a [00:12:00] state of bliss and figure out how to, how to get to my car. But you know, that those things tend to pass pretty quickly for better or worse.

And

Will: two weeks seems like an awful long time to not find your car,

Karen: but bliss for two weeks. Sounds

Will: wonderful. It does. I don't think I've achieved that for more than like four

seconds, two minutes,

Jonathan: It was nice. It was nice.

Will: I

bet. Oh.

Jonathan: But you know, I think a lot of people can find. This peace and bliss for a minute here, a minute there throughout their day, and then it just becomes more a part of your life. And it's not that noticeable because you just think, well, everything's kind of good.

Karen: and you get used to

Jonathan: Yeah.

Will: Hmm. So then, I guess we should define it first. For those that are listening who maybe aren't completely on board with these, when can you say that you are now spiritually enlightened? Or is it, is it

a goalpost?

Jonathan: Uh, it is a goalpost, meaning that. , you know, there's levels of it and there's even different types of enlightenment. [00:13:00] Like some are very love oriented, some are very peace oriented and some are very joy oriented. So those are actually three different experiences. Um, but my definition of enlightenment is when your identity kind of tips from being a personality and an ego to being.

An awareness or a presence of love or a presence of peace, and you're no longer so much identified what your character does. You know, I, I get very amused watching Jonathan. He sometimes does really stupid things, but I'm not so much Jonathan. I'm more like the presence that's watching it.

Will: That's interesting. So you suddenly become someone that is watching you from a distance, almost like your, your personality takes a backseat and is along for the ride. Watching your true self, your higher self actually

exist,

Jonathan: Yeah, that's one type of enlightenment. Another type is more like, [00:14:00] um, where you're just a, a presence of love. Have you ever felt that where, you know, maybe you just fell in love with somebody and, and you're in love with everybody. You know the whole world is smiling at you. Well, imagine that experience all the time, and that's another type of enlightenment.

Will: Seems like you might get into trouble.

Jonathan: It can get complicated. It can get complicated. You, you have to, you have

Karen: smiling at me?

Jonathan: you have to make sure you don't take your old model of, of having sex with the people you love, because that would involve every way.

Karen: That's a whole different type of enlightenment. . Yeah.

Will: That, that, that would be skeptic. My positions after Dark . Hey, spinoff show. Hey, . All right, so you've mentioned three different types of spiritual enlightenment. Can you choose which ones you are striving for? Is this something that, you know, roll the dice and Nope.

You get joy and whoop, you get love.

How? How does that work?

Jonathan: well there are different methods that tend to lead to different ones, but a little bit to roll the dice. But you know, with [00:15:00] there's now a science of how to tune it. So I, I kind of awaken to a more peaceful type of enlightenment and now I'm trying to tune it to more of a loving type of enlightenment.

And there's methods that can help you do that.

Karen: wow. I love that. So when did you start along

this path?

Jonathan: Well, I was blessed to have a very miserable childhood. Um,

Karen: Oh my gosh,

Will: uh, I love you. Optimism

Jonathan: well, you know, looking back, you know, I, I had a stepfather who used to beat me up a lot and it a lot of, a lot of violence and a lot of difficulty in my childhood. So I kind of had my midlife crisis around age 12 and I got into meditating and hypnosis so that I wouldn't kill myself at that time.

And later I got into, you know, psychedelics and I realized, wow, there's a whole world outside of my normal. Mind resistance to the crap I was [00:16:00] going through. And I, I just decided I was going to spend as much of my life as possible figuring out how to get back there. And, um, and at first it was slow going, but yet as I said, the methods are getting better and better.

And one of the reasons I wrote the Enlightenment project is I felt a responsibility to get out the best ideas, kind of like the greatest. Right now so that other people didn't have to spend 40 frigging years interviewing a hundred people.

Will: Yeah. But if you can interview a hundred people, the hundred people you interviewed are the ones to interview .

Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. It was fun.

Will: can you give us an example of some of the things that you would suggest people do? I know meditation obviously is they, everyone says meditation is the way in, but what can someone do to help jumpstart their

awakening?

Jonathan: Well, I'll give a couple methods. Um, one of them involves a little bit of a funny story. When I interviewed a lot of these teachers, a lot of them said that, [00:17:00] you know, love is of course a doorway, but so is gratitude. Well, I'm too lazy to keep a gratitude journal. And I figured maybe, you know, I could use my laziness to help humanity.

So when a friend of mine told me that he got a magical mantra from his guru that helped him to feel gratitude all the time, I said, well, what's that mantra? I wanna know what that is. So he told me that I had to go to India to get it directly from the guru. So I reluctantly booked a flight to India. Ha.

Have you either of you been to.

Will: Not yet. Karen's been dying to go to

India for a long

time.

Jonathan: Well, it's, it's a long way away, and once you get there, it's, it's, you know, there's a lot of pollution, a lot of difficulty. So I take a Rick Shaw through Polluted Streets for three hours, and then I get to the guru and I, I have to wait four hours to talk to him. Finally get a chance to talk to this guy, and he says, I ask him for the the gratitude mantra and he [00:18:00] says, ah, yes, in his Indian accent, my mantra is the most powerful mantra on earth.

And he leans into whisper in my ears. I'm not even breathing cause I wanna get every syllable just right, you know? And he says, whenever possible, repeat these words. The mantra. I give you other words. Thank you. I look at him like, you gotta be kidding me.

Karen: Oh my gosh.

Jonathan: I say, so I tell him, that's it. I traveled 20,000 miles again.

Thank you. That's it. And he goes, he looks at me sternly. He said, no, no, that's it is the mantra you have been using that makes you feel like you never have enough. My mantra is, thank you not, that's it. That's it. We'll take you nowhere.

Karen: I love that.

Oh my

Jonathan: so I look at him and I say, well, thanks for nothing. And he says, thanks for nothing is not the mantra.

You must say it from your heart many times a day. So when you eat good food, say thank you. When you see your child or the [00:19:00] sunset or the pet, say thank you from your heart, and soon you'll feel gratitude for everything. Well, the strange thing is, is that this method, as stupid as it sounds, actually works because you and I lived better than billionaires lived 30 years ago.

You know, we're talking across the country. Immediately for free, and people are getting this information that I spent 40 years gathering basically for free. But if you don't feel the gratitude in your heart and take a moment to say thank you to creation, well, you can miss it all. So the methods that work the best are ones that take like 10 seconds.

that you can do in life, that if you do them enough, they actually switch your consciousness from, that's it to thank you so much. Creation.

Will: I love

Karen: that story. That's so great. Yeah. You know, and after investing all that money in time to fly, well, you're gonna at least try it. , right? . Damnit. I'm gonna say thank you all day long. .

No,

Jonathan: [00:20:00] It developed a momentum because, you know, you get into a taxi with the air conditioning. Well, it's 105 in India. Thank you for the air conditioning. You get to the, the, uh, hotel. There's a, a western toilet. Thank you. I open up my computer and I Skype my wife. This was a bunch of years ago, and I'm saying thank you for my wife, thank you for my computer.

Thank you for Skype. Thank you that I'm talking across the planet for free. Instantaneously and tears rolled down my face and she said, that must have been some mantra. And I said, you have no idea.

Will: I love that story. I love it. I love it. Yeah, it's wonderful. Yep. , I'm, Amazed that it's already how long it, it's already time for a break.

It's already time for break, believe it or not. But, we've got so much more to talk to Jonathan about when we come back. we're gonna talk a little bit more about spiritual awakes. We're also gonna talk about what some of these personalities that he interviewed are like. So stay with us. We'll be right back on the skeptic positions. [00:21:00] Welcome back to the Skeptic Meta Physicians. We are talking to Jonathan Robinson. He has interviewed the top of the top of gurus in the metaphysical and spiritual space. He knows all there is to know about spiritual awakenings and enlightenments.

We have been. Talking to him now for enough time to know that we got a lot to learn. , . Jonathan, before the break, you told us this wonderful story about the thank you mantra. That's gonna become now my new one. So thank you for that. And that's a great way to. pursue a spiritual awakening is by, using that mantra.

And sure enough, when you say, when you live in, in gratitude, it's been proven that your vibrational levels. Tend to raise tremendously when you are living in gratitude. and that's really what we're trying to do when we're trying to awaken, right, is we're we want to raise our.

to the point where eventually we get to the point where we ascend, whatever that

means, right?

Jonathan: Mm-hmm. [00:22:00] .Yeah. And, and gratitude's. One way, another method I like is, um, called the Lester Love Method, and you make a list of everybody you've ever loved, even if it was like a fourth grade teacher that you really appreciate or loved. And you know, when I made that list, it was like 50 people. And then you spend a.

Thinking about each person or animal that you've loved and what you loved about them. Well, you do this 50 times. You're spending like an hour bathing yourself in love in that vibration, and it's, it becomes just part of your day that you're bathed in love and that actually can help you to stay in love.

And if you stay in love long enough, well, you're pretty enlight.

Karen: Yeah. You know, gosh, that makes so much sense because you, you, everybody knows those people that are, you know, whether it's a friend or relative, that's always just kind of negative and everything they talk about is negative and they just become this negative person. So, yeah, I guess, I mean, it's one of those [00:23:00] things you don't think about, well, let me just think about love.

Mm-hmm. , I never would've thought about that, but that's the perfect

solution.

Jonathan: So that's why I put a lot of these newer techniques that have really just been invented in the last 20 years into the book. And your mission should you decide to accept it, is to find the method that works the best for you.

Will: And it really echoes the mission of our show, Karen? That, yeah. we explore all these different paths specifically because everyone has a very individual path and. The explorations that we're doing is giving our audience a way to explore all of them without leaving the comfort of their homes and seeing what resonates to them, with the hopes of you cobbling your own path forward and being okay knowing that your path is not the same path as everybody else.

Mm-hmm. , that's the, biggest takeaway. Yeah. For the past two years we've been doing the show for me

Now. Let's get personal for a second. When I meditate sometimes, I do a lot of guided meditations. I know on your show awareness explorers, you do meditation, the end of the show [00:24:00] sometimes too.

And it's some great meditations. , I meditate every day and every day's a different meditation. Cause I am a Gemini and I can't stay stuck in the same kind of meditation, right? So I like trying a lot of different ones. Sometimes I'll hit on one that talks about.

Breathing through your heart and the act of breathing through my heart sometimes opens it up so wide that that feeling of love that you're talking about completely overwhelms me for an extended period of time, which is incredible. But sometimes it gets a little. It's heart to handle, right? And then all of a sudden you got the crash of you're back home on earth and suddenly the, the, the dog is barking, the kid is crying.

The, horns are blowing outside, sirens are going. how do you maintain

these feelings?

Jonathan: Well, you know, if you think of, uh, a human hand, uh, it's very useful because of two things. You can close the hand and you can open it, and you can do both in a second. Well, opening your hand is like [00:25:00] opening your heart. It's great. It's very useful. Closing your hand is like closing your heart. Well, A har, a hand that's just closed is a, is a club.

It's not very useful, but the fact that you can open and close it at Will is very useful. So I work with people on know, I'm a psychotherapist and, uh, both in, in, in my practice and with myself getting better at opening my. In under five seconds and getting better at closing my heart in under five seconds.

Because if you don't know how to sometimes close your heart, uh, you can get overwhelmed with people suffering and therefore you want to get good at both of them and learn the precise things that you're already doing, whether it be on drugs or in meditation or whatever that allow you to do both of those activit.

Will: Karen can really use that, uh,

Karen: tip. How to close the heart. I get, I [00:26:00] get overwhelmed. .

Jonathan: Yeah.

Karen: It's, it's tough. Sometimes I just, you just feel it. You feel everyone's feelings and it's, oh, it's

so hard.

Jonathan: and, and it's a nice ability to have, not that you would use it that much, but in order to handle the amount of stimulation, you know, the average person now gets exposed to like 2000 advertisements a day. Well, you know, a hundred years ago that was two advertisements a day. That's, that's a lot for the human energy field to handle.

And you have to learn how to protect yourself as well as how to open to love. And if they don't go together, it's like one wing of a plane being strong and the other one being weak. Well, that plane's gonna go around circles, it might crash.

Will: Mm-hmm. . Spiraling down. Absolutely. So then how does someone go about. Closing themselves off without the fear of closing themselves off

for good.

Jonathan: Well, if you get, how confident are you at tying your shoes,

Will: Uh, pretty good.

Jonathan: I, I bet you're pretty [00:27:00] confident.

Karen: he can those babies

Jonathan: You know when your shoe's untied, you don't worry, am I ever gonna be able to tie my shoes again? You know, because you've done it a bunch, you're pretty good at. So if you're in a situation where you have to kind of close down a little bit, I know a lot of different specific ways to open up in 10 seconds or less.

So I know that I don't have to worry.

Will: Fair point.

Karen: Out of all these incredible people that you have had the chance to get to know and to interview, who has given you the most impactful lesson?

Hmm.

Will: Great

question.

Jonathan: Well, I knew Ramdas for a long time and I would occasionally write letters to him and he would give me good guidance. Um, you know, a lot of these people, even though they're very busy, I saw that they were all very kind and it helped me to want to be kinder, you know, that we prioritize people over money or, or other things.

Uh, , but [00:28:00] Ram Dass, we'd always have a great time together. He would give me spot on advice. Wayne Dyer, who was another person that really went way beyond the call of duty to be helpful to me. Um, and you know, I could say many others too, but those are two that really surprised me And Oprah as well. You know, I got on her show a bunch and uh, I was just awed by her level of kindness towards.

And, uh, it made me wanna be a, a kinder.

Will: There's definitely something special about people like that their, their souls are worn so much on the outside. You can really feel it. You could see it, right? Anytime you saw. , Wayne Dyers speak, or Ron Das or even Oprah speak. I mean, you could feel the genuine care for the other soul. it's astounding to me, how much they cared for.

Yeah. Everybody. Uh, so it makes perfect sense. Now, you also spoke with the late Mother Teresa. Like,

[00:29:00] what was that like?

Jonathan: that was a funny story. Most of the interviews I did were in person, but, uh, in 1993, I believe I was doing a book where I was interviewing people and I didn't have the money to go to India, so, and there was no internet. So I went to the library and found, is there any a. Organizations she's part of, and she was part of an organization called The Sisters of Charity.

So I find a number for the Sisters of Charity, and I call that number now, calling any place in India. And having somebody pick up was like calling the space station, having an astronaut pick up, you know?

Karen: Right.

Jonathan: so I call this number and a woman answers and I say, you know, I'm Jonathan. Do you know anybody who might know Mother Theresa or any way I could get ahold of her?

And the woman says, yes, this is Ma. And I say, ma, do you? Can you help me with this? I'd really love to interview her. And she says, yes, this is ma. At that [00:30:00] moment, I realized, this woman sounds like Mother Teresa. I said, are you Mother Teresa? And she said, yes. How can I help you? I just start crying.

Karen: Of course.

Jonathan: And the first question I had for her was, why'd you pick up the phone? You know, so she says, I don't normally pick up the phone, but it was ringing when I walked by. And, you know, that's the type of grace that can happen. So she, um, she did a wonderful interview and then wrote me a nice couple letters.

Karen: Wow.

Jonathan: And, uh, you know, of course I still have those letters.

And, uh, it just shows, you know, when you're, when you're trying to do something for other people, humanity, I think we do

get help .

Will: Wow. And Jonathan, I got, I gotta say, you are, you make me laugh so much in a such great way because you also are unbelievably humble [00:31:00] and kind, and super kind and, and loving and, and just the, the genuineness. Your first question, why did you pick up the phone?

That I love that so much cause that, that's a perfectly human thing to say, but you don't think about saying that to Mother Teresa

Jonathan: Well, I like something Ronda said,

which is we're all really walking each other home. And, and you know, since I've been lucky enough to speak to people that have a lot of wisdom, I try to pass it on and, you know, we're all learning from each other, hopefully.

Will: I think more and more of us are starting to learn from each other and, turning it around and teaching others as we go. I'm hoping. That eventually we get to a critical mass where then suddenly the uss will outnumber the thems, although I hate that us and them thing.

Yeah. Right. It's not really that we are, are all one. It's just that [00:32:00] right now there's so much strife and so much division in the world that it, you can't help but feel like a, uh, Hatfield versus McCoy's when it comes to something like this. Mm. What can somebody do when you're on a path like this and yet you're seeing all this junk, all this garbage happening in the world around you, how do you get beyond it to, to the point where you can actually be okay knowing that it's gonna be

okay?

Jonathan: Well, we don't know if it's gonna be okay. It could

Will: Oh, no, no, no, no. Jonathan. That's not, no, we're gonna, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be,

Jonathan: well.

Will: we're manifesting real reality, right?

Jonathan: I, um, I have a refrigerator magnet on my refrigerator that is a quote from the Buddha that says, do not look for peace in the world. It is not there. Look for peace within. And you know, we can't control the events in the world, but we can find peace within that is within our [00:33:00] ability. And if you find peace within, well, you will have peace.

And also I think when you have peace, it's contagious. Meaning you're going to affect your family, your friends, you know, most of the people I know are having a fantastic. But I'm also a psychotherapist, so I get to see that, you know, it's a crap show out there or you turn on the news, you know? But in my world, it's really good.

Will: Yeah. Yep. Fair

Jonathan: You know, I, I also volunteer in prisons and I teach meditation there. So I think, you know, when I ask a lot of these people, what's a meaning and purpose of life? And they all said the same thing. and, uh, for 1495, your listeners can find out what that is. No, I'm, I'm joking with it.

Karen: Oh

Will: man. Well look at the time. Uh, we gotta go,

Karen: but wait, there's

Jonathan: there's more.

Yeah. Um, no, the, the meaning and purpose of life that everybody [00:34:00] agreed was that we're supposed to find peace and love within, and then if and when we accomplish that to some extent, that we go out and help people and help the. but most people are trying to skip step one and go to step two, and that leads to burnout.

Will: Yeah, that's such a great point. Now, have you ever come across someone that. Gets angry that you're so peaceful. For example, if all this crap show that's going on outside our windows is happening and you find peace within and suddenly that stuff doesn't trouble you as much cuz you've got inner peace.

People outside might be like, do you not care at all? Like, aren't you supposed to help us overthrow all this garbage? Uh, how do you respond to

people?

Jonathan: Well, I tell them that I am volunteering and helping in the way I can. I have, you know, books, podcasts, volunteer in prisons and other things I do. But since that person's in front of me and I think [00:35:00] the step one is for people to find peace, I then empathize with their anger. You know, there's a bumper sticker.

If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. But take that outrage and turn it into something useful, and being angry does not help the world. Being peaceful and loving helps the world, so I might try to help that person in that moment. Feel like yes, it is hard out there, and if you could put more energy in investing in your own peace and love, then not only would you have more peace, but you might be able to help the world as well.

Will: That's a good point. Yeah. In fact, the anger is part of the problem. The reason why the crap show out there is because so many people are, are angry. Mm-hmm. , uh, instead of looking inside and finding the inner piece, I think it's a, it's

Karen: a great answer. Yeah. Emotions are so contagious. It reminds me of that video we were just watching Will with the guy at the bus stop.

who just starts laughing. Yes. And little by little, there's like 20 people at the bus stop and he just laughing to [00:36:00] himself and within two minutes everybody at the bus stop is laughing and there's no reason why they're just laughing. I love

Will: that video so much. Yeah. Yeah. It's very contagious. And I think

Karen: anger is the same way.

You know, you're just angry and bitter and next thing you know that guy's, you know, pissing you off and you're mad at them and they're mad at the next guy and it's, yeah. So just really kind of trying to rein that in or control which emotion that you focus on or.

is part of

Jonathan: Mm-hmm. ,we're all transmitters in some way.

Will: Mm-hmm. ? Yeah. Transmitters and receivers at the same time. Some of us more than others, I guess. Receivers, now, speaking of incredible gurus, What miracles did you see Sababa perform? I'm

unbelievably curious,

Jonathan: Well, I'm an amateur magician, so I know how magicians can do stuff, so I was curious as to whether he could really manifest like things out of thin air.

So the first dam I'm at Ashram, uh, he, he stops in front of me. There's like 30,000 people there, but he stops in front of me. He puts his hand six inches from my face and starts manifesting all this [00:37:00] ash.

Being a, I'm a magician. I know how magicians could do that, so I'm looking for like a false thumb or false fingers or other tricks, and I can't see anything. Well, side bobba didn't really know much English, but he, he manifests like two couples of ash. I'm being inundated. And then he looks at me and he says, satisfied magic men.

Karen: That's

Jonathan: I said, yeah, that was, that was pretty good. That wasn't

Karen: Yeah. Wow. That is awesome.

Will: Oh my gosh. I could talk to you, Jonathan. Literally I could

talk to you all night long. I think this is

my

Jonathan: Well, I have an appointment in seven hours, so we'll have to limit it to 9 45 here.

wait, wait.

Will: Oh my gosh.

Karen: You're the people that you work with must just love

you. I mean,

Jonathan: I am entertaining. Uh, I, I do get a lot of people who, you know, one of the reasons I write books is they say, well, read the book. You know, you'll, you'll hear more stories. And, [00:38:00]

um, but, you know, I, I just feel so blessed. And I think the thing that really helped me the most was a willingness. To get help from people who knew more than me,

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan: I'm still doing that, you know, and everybody knows more than you in some area. So that gives a lot of room for us to learn from each other. you know, a Ashanti, when I asked him what spirituality was to him, he said it's constant learning and constant discovery.

Will: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan: I think that's a good definit.

Will: Absolutely. I, if you didn't live in California, didn't live in Virginia, I would ask you if you're accepting new patients, because I can't only imagine what a great therapist you must be. Yeah. I, in fact, I very, very, very firmly believe in therapy. Mm-hmm. , and I was lucky enough to have a therapist that, that was in the same space.

She started me meditating. Mm-hmm. . Uh, so your patients are unbelievably lucky to have you, so,

um, thank you [00:39:00] for your, for your service.

Yeah.

Jonathan: thank you. And you know, there's a lot of good new tools for people to awaken, to love. There's, you know, I, I, my master's thesis was on the therapeutic effects of M D M A, better known as ecstasy on P

T S D. So,

um, and then two weeks later, they made it illegal. Yeah. Right. But you know, that's, that's gonna be legal this year. , um, they're going through third stage f d a trials. There's more interest in psychedelics. Hopefully people use such things responsibly. There's psychotherapy. There's all these new spiritual methods. So I think if somebody's really interested in finding more peace and love within that, it's easier than ever.

And, uh, you don't have to spend 10 years in a monastery. You can read a book, watch a YouTube. Listen to your podcasts [00:40:00] and it's now possible. I think that's great because we need it more than ever.

Karen: Absolutely. And with a lot of the people that we've interviewed, kind of one of the themes is, you know, meditation is key. It's kind of the gateway, and you have studied with the masters. I mean, there are so many people that can't meditate or struggle to really be able to clear their minds and get to that space.

Is there any little tip you could give someone that's struggling with that to kind of

help them?

Jonathan: Absolutely. Uh, analogy I use is that, uh, personally I don't like broccoli, but I love potato chips. Well, they're both food, but if you only had broccoli, you'd say, I hate food. Well, it's the same thing with meditation, that there's literally a on on my website, awareness explorers.com. In the navigation bar, I have meditations.

There's a hundred. Guided meditations for most of the spiritual leaders of the world. And people can try those out. [00:41:00] Some of them are gonna be like broccoli and some of them are gonna be like Hogan dos ice cream. Like wow, this is amazing. And it's free,

Karen: Right.

Jonathan: you know? So,

um, I would say try different types of meditation until you find one that you actually really enjoy.

Will: I think I might have found my new favorite website, Karen .

Karen: I think we both might have .

Will: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Jonathan, this has been. Unbelievable. And I know we say that a lot, we've been unbelievably lucky to get the chance to talk to so many amazing people. Mm-hmm. , you are right up there at the top, this has been such a wonderful conversation in so many different ways.

I would love to be your friend, , right? Forget recurring guests. I just wanna be your friend. ,

Karen: please. Yeah. Well, there's that stalking wheel. Is that stalking?

Will: He said that's the way to go.

So while.

Jonathan: 30 letters and phone calls Should do it.

Will: Jonathan, [00:42:00] get ready cause it's coming. . No, truly. I would love to have you back on the show because you touched a little bit on the M D M A, and I've heard you talk about it on Awareness Explorers before, and I found it fascinating. In fact, I broached the topic a little bit with Karen and she just shut it down.

So I would love to have you and us have a conversation about the benefit. Of M D M A and specifically, maybe breaking down that objection, that maybe it's a crutch and we'll, we'll, mm-hmm. , do a little tease for our

next episode with

you because

Jonathan: do that and. And I just, as you mentioned, I did a, a recent podcast on it and I actually train it. I do, uh, people go to m dmma training.net and find out a lot about what I do. Um, so, you know, but you gotta find the tool that works for you and use it

Karen: Mm-hmm. .

Will: that's the key. Yeah. Cuz I mean, not just M D M A, but they're found that LSD is really helpful for folks with P T S D. suddenly all the [00:43:00] tools that were. Taboo now are kind of coming back in vogue because they're finding that there's serious benefits.

Mm-hmm. behind them. Mm-hmm. , as long as you do 'em responsibly. Uh, I've heard you spoke, speaking about microdosing, for example, things like that. So D doesn't mean you go on this massive trip, right? You don't, you're going on a bender. . .

so of all the people that you've spoken to, is there someone that surprised you in a way that you didn't expect? Take that

as you will.

Jonathan: There were several, but I'll tell one story. Um, I was visiting a famous guru in India that I'd heard about, but I didn't really know anything about him. So when I got to his ashram, it was actually his house. And I opened the door and he's in front of like 30 people in his living room, and he points to me and says, sit here.

I'm like, I'm all, you know, what's this about? So, uh, his name was, uh, Papa. anyways. Um, so he gets up close to me and he, he says, who are you? And I didn't [00:44:00] know this protocol, so I said, I'm Jonathan from the United States. And he and everybody in the room starts laughing, I think, well, that was the wrong answer.

So then he said, no. who are you really? And I went through like, well, I'm a writer, or I'm a husband, or I'm a, um, spiritual seeker. And he keeps shaking his head no. Finally, I looked him in the eye and there were like beams of light coming out of his eyes. I just got kind of transfixed like, well, I've never seen that before.

And as I'm looking silently in his eyes, a wave. Of intense love came over me. It was almost like getting hit by a, a wave, and I, I started sobbing in his lap and he said something that still hits me today. And that was this love that you're feeling now. That's who you really are [00:45:00] and your job in life is to never forget. And you know, even when I see people I don't like, I know somewhere in there there's the divine love is moving, is created them, they are that underneath all that personality and our job is to get back there.

Will: 100%. and I can tell that it's really hitting Karen hard cuz once again water works earning . No, but it makes perfect sense. Karen. I even started tearing up that that story is incredibly moving. Because it's, it's, that's what we're all striving for. Mm-hmm. , right? Absolutely.

well, Jonathan, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us and share of the wisdom that you carry around with you all the time. What an incredible burden to have to carry that heavy load with you.

Thanks for unloading some of that

Jonathan: Oh, well thank you for letting me unload it. It was so hard now. Now I feel so light. I [00:46:00] appreciate it.

Will: I almost like, I feel like

a

therapist now.

we turn the

Karen: tables.

Jonathan: How much do I owe you?

Karen: But, you know, you share everything in such a joyful way, and that is such a great way for people to learn. So I just, I can't wait for our listeners to hear you and hear this, this conversation and check you out on their website. It's, and, and hopefully

Will: have you back. Definitely.

We're gonna tie in all of the, links to our website, skeptic meta.com.

You can get, in contact with Jonathan through there. also we're gonna add a link to Awareness Explorers, which is the podcast that he does with his partner. And it is really, it's one of my favorite shows. I listen to it literally. every time it comes out, it's one of the ones I listen to right away, cuz I, I really love it.

So,

Jonathan: thank you.

Will: Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on the show. Is there anything that you wanna make sure that you leave our

audience with?

Jonathan: Uh, joy and peace is possible even in a difficult world.

Will: I couldn't Perfect. Couldn't have said it better myself. So thank you so much for coming on the show and uh, we'll see you [00:47:00] again soon.

Jonathan: I hope so. It was really a great pleasure to meet both of you.

Will: Woohoo. It's time to celebrate again. Yep. You guessed it. It's five star review time. We got another five star review. We're so excited we needed to share with you. As well this time it's from Nancy Farco. I don't know if I said that last name correctly. So Nancy, I'm so sorry. Forgive me if I got your name wrong, but we appreciate you writing a review for the show.

Last thing I wanna do is butcher your name, not my intent. I'm so sorry. I hope you will forgive. Anyway, this was another five star review. The subject line was, thank you. And she goes on to say, I am so glad I found this podcast. I love all the topics you have covered. Most of my friends would not be into these topics, so I listen while I am painting.

Well, thanks so much for letting us know how you consume our show. Really appreciate the fact that you took the time [00:48:00] to write us a review, and this one folks came through our website, so she went to skeptic meta physician.com.

That's exactly what you could do as well. If you are so inclined, go to skeptic meta physician.com. Leave us a review there. You could also go to Apple Podcasts or Pod Chaser and leave us reviews there as well. We love, love feedback, especially constructive. feedback because then we can grow the show better.

And that has always been our goal. So thank you again, Nancy, for leaving us review. Really super appreciate it. If you'd like to hear your review, read on the air, you heard it, skeptic manifestation.com. Apple podcast or Podcast chaser.

Well, thanks for coming along on this journey of discovery with us. We'd love to continue our conversation with you on our website at SkepticMetaphysician.com, or on Facebook and Instagram under Skeptic Metaphysician podcast.. If you know someone who would benefit from hearing the messages we're sharing on the show, do them and [00:49:00] us a favor and share the show with them.

It will help get the word out about us, and it may just change someone's life for the better. And if you're listening to this on the radio and you missed something, well, not to worry. All of our shows, including this one, can be found at SkepticMetaphysician.com where you can also watch the videos or you can send us an email or voicemail directly from the site.

We absolutely love feedback and would appreciate hearing from you. Well, I hope you've enjoyed this episode as much as we have. That's all for now. We'll see you on the next episode of The Skeptic Meta Physicians. Until then, take care.