Embracing Your Truth: Coming Out of the Spiritual Closet

Will: [00:00:00] Karen? Yes. We both grew up in Catholic traditions, right?

Yes, we did. Now, were you subjected to a lot of dogma in your upbringing? at school?

Karen: At school? Not at home, but at school? Not not at the church, no. Um, we didn't go to church a whole lot. Oh, so it was

Will: just a school religious

Jenn: for you? It was a yes. A school. I mean, we went to

Karen: church at school and then we went on the holidays.

Will: So you were a holiday

Karen: Catholic? I was a typical Catholic.

Will: Gotcha. Well, I also, uh, we actually went to church on Sundays and I had a lot of programming when I was involved in the church growing up. You did. So much so that I think I might still be feeling some of the effects today of that programming. I can't help but feel that had I not had that dogmatic programming while I was a kid, I might be a lot more advanced on the spiritual path I'm around.

Karen: Well, you had the, like a crazy intense I had never heard of such thing. Yeah. Until you

Will: told me. Yeah. We'll have to talk about it on the show one day. Yeah. but then, sadly this fear seems to be the prevailing feeling [00:01:00] in so many people that have grown up with religious upbringings.

So the question is, how do you overcome the struggle that comes with wanting to come out of the spiritual closet because of religious trauma or judgment? Right. Nobody wants to be looked at weird or burned at the stake. Right? True. Well, this is just a sliver of what we're about to cover on this episode of the Skeptic Meta Physicians.

Will: [00:02:00] Today's story comes

Today's story comes from a podcast that I've been listening to for a little while now. The show is called Ungraded Living, and the host of that show takes us. Through a journey of rediscovery trying to get ourselves unprogrammed from the way that we've been programmed by society over the last hundreds of years.

His topics are so mind blowing that every time I see one of his shows come out, I do what I can to listen to it right away because it does force you to think way outside of your box. and he doesn't do it. by pure speculation, he does a lot of research and everything he says and he talks about makes so much sense.

Well, on one of his recent episodes, he shared a story with us, the listeners, and I really hope that he doesn't mind if I share it with you because it was such an amazing story that I think it needs to get out there more and more. Anyway, this is the real life story of Paul Gretchen. Now, [00:03:00] Paul had just started dating a woman named Esther, e s t h e r, Esther, and he was thinking about asking her to be his girlfriend.

He was standing in a deli paying for a sandwich when he noticed a dollar bill with a name Esther on it. How weird. He thought to himself that the name Esther would appear at the exact moments he was thinking of their relationship. Well, for some reason he decided not to spend it and instead took the bill home with him, something he'd never normally do.

he decided that this dollar bill would be a funny gift for Esther, so he put it in a frame, and on the day he gave it to her, he planned on that day to ask her to make the relationship official. But when Esther unwrapped the frame with a dollar bill inside, she didn't laugh.

She was absolutely speechless As she stared at the dollar bill. She seemed shocked and confused after some silence. Paul told her it wasn't quite the reaction he'd been hoping for, so he asked her if something was wrong. Well, Esther replied that everything was fine and happily agreed to date Paul [00:04:00] exclusively.

Two years went by without any mention of that dollar bill. They grew closer and closer, and Paul eventually proposed to Esther. They got married and it wasn't until they moved into their new home together that Paul saw the dollar bill. Once again, He was surprised that Esther had kept the dollar bill after all this time.

It was only then that Esther finally revealed why she reacted the way she did. To the dollar bill all those years ago. See, it turns out that when she was 19 years old, she was in an unhappy relationship. It was ending, and in the middle of that breakup, she remembers thinking that she wasn't sure if true love was even real.

So she decided to leave her fate in the hands of the universe. She took 10 different $1 bills, and on each of them, she wrote her name, she said to herself very adamantly, very intently. If I'm meant to find my true love, then one of these bills will end up in the hands of the man that I will marry. And so when Paul gave her the dollar bill with her name on it, in that moment, you see, she knew that [00:05:00] she was going to marry him, but she didn't wanna reveal that information so early on in the relationship for fear that it would look perhaps a little bit too clingy, maybe too over reactionary.

So it's astonishing and of course an unlikely story. As of today. Paul and Esther have been married for more than 19 years, and they have three children. It's been said that when you're on the right path, the universe winks and nods from time to time, just to let you know. And once you start noticing these little cosmic clues, once you understand that you're on a path at all, you'll begin to see the clues and signs everywhere.

A big, big thank you to Ungraded Living, the podcast that comes out daily, little short episodes that are unbelievably mind blowing. He really focuses on one particular topic in every week, and he goes into this topic in little bite-sized chunks every weekday. If you've not listened to Ungraded Living, I urge you to go look them up.

he is on all the. Podcasting platforms we are as well. And if you [00:06:00] do listen to him, subscribe to his show, say hi to inform us, let him know that we are big fans and we're big fans of you, the listener as well.

Hello everyone, to another episode of The Skeptic Meta Physicians, the podcast that delves into the mysteries of life, spirituality, and personal growth. I'm your host Will and with me today, as always, is my divine co-host and life partner, Karen. Hello. Today we have a truly fascinating guest joining us with a background in running a metaphysical shop in wellness center in Minnesota.

She made a bold move to the heart of the Bible Belt. Oklahoma. Now. She's here today to share her unique insights on the stark differences she's observed in the spiritual communities and how they navigate the diverse spiritual beliefs they encounter. Welcome to the show, Jen Erma. How are you doing?

Jenn: I'm fantastic.

I'm so excited to be here. You have no idea. Well, I'm nerve sighted. I will say that I'm a little bit nervous.

Will: I don't think we should be nervous at all,

Jenn: but [00:07:00] I adore you guys so much. You have no idea. Like when I started, doing podcasts on my own with a friend of mine, I was looking for people who were doing the same thing.

And I found you guys, and I'm just so excited because what you are doing is the energy that I hope that a lot of people get to experience when they're listening to different podcasts. So I'm just really excited to be with you guys. That

Will: means so much to us. Thank you, Jen. Thank you. That's incredible. Let's dive right in, right.

Moving from Minnesota. A place where metaphysics and spirituality may have been more openly embraced to Oklahoma Yes. Where religious beliefs held a really strong presence. Yes. It must have been quite a journey.

Jenn: Yes, it was. Um, I walked through a lot when I was growing up in the spiritual realm in Minnesota.

I got through a lot of my fear there, so I went through all the religious persecution and all of those other things while I was there. And I got real comfortable after years. Being open in that [00:08:00] community. And then I ended up moving down here and I don't know how many times I have heard, well, I walk with the Lord and I'm like, I do too.

Just in a different way. Um, so, so it's been really interesting to watch the way that people interact and the things that they say. Mm-hmm. Um, And I've had a really good opportunity since I've been down here. I'm a very chatty Kathy. I will talk to anybody and I'll ask them questions about their spirituality, about their religion.

And so I've had the opportunity to have a lot of conversations with people who are in very religious settings or they have a very strong religious background. Um, and. I've actually had a lot of people open up to me and say, you know what? I've never really talked to anybody who has your spiritual beliefs.

I've just been told that you're the devil and that I'm not supposed to talk to you. Like I've had people say that to me. Wow. Wow. And [00:09:00] like my heart breaks, but at the same time I'm like, you know, that's their belief. And I'm grateful that they can say that to me. And not feel the judgment or feel the fear about saying like where they're at.

I'd rather have the conversation so we can both come to a place like in the middle,

Will: because it makes sense at least they're open to the conversation where sometimes a lot of those really ultra religious people won't even have the conversation. They just think, you're the devil.

We're gonna bring you to the sake. You're gonna go to hell. I want nothing to do with you. And then there's no way to talk to them. Not that we're proselytizing, but I. Then there's the other side where they actually, you are wrong. We're gonna, we're gonna, I'm gonna have to change you and bring you to God.

And Yes. And

Jenn: you were

Karen: a little bit like that on the, on the opposite side. Will, I dunno

Will: what you're talking about. When first started out blah blah, I'm not hearing anything. It

Karen: was interesting though. We had a similar kind of culture clash when we moved here. We're in Virginia now and we moved from Florida and I remember it was probably the first couple of months, you know, we didn't know anybody [00:10:00] and everyone we met like I.

Okay. Maybe not everyone, but maybe 98% of the people we met within the first. Three sentences of a conversation were like, oh, what church do you go to? What church do you go to? It was so different than what anything we'd had experienced before. So I, I kind of get

Will: that and you should've seen the reaction when I said, I go to the church of Will.

I got some crazy seas, but, you know, but it's true. I have my own religion. I have my own thought process. Yeah. And, and then there's nothing wrong with that. Nope. in my estimation, I had a friend in high school who actually. I cried when she said to me, that she loved me, but she knew I was going to hell because I didn't believe in the stuff she believed in.

Yeah. Which was really hard to take cuz she's a really good friend. And, just because I don't believe what you believe, I'm going to hell. Yeah. Because Yeah. But I love you and I just, you know, pray for you every day. Well, thank you for the prayers, but. Holy smokes.

Karen: Yeah. And the good thing is we don't really believe in hell.

So it's okay there. There is that. Yeah. But enough about

Jenn: us. Well, growing up actually my best friend from childhood, her family was very religious. Um, I believe they were [00:11:00] Catholic. I'm pretty sure they were Catholic. And they used to have her pray for me every night. Wow. Um, and I didn't know this until I was older and when we finally talked about it, she said, do you know what I prayed.

I prayed that we'd end up in the same place when we died. She's like, I didn't pray what they were asking, because she's like, I don't understand.

Will: Wow. Well, she better hope you, it's not hell you're ending up in. Yeah.

Karen: Well

Jenn: at least it'll be fun. Right?

Will: That's awesome. Yeah, How did you overcome that? Well,

Jenn: so what I started doing when I got down here is I started reaching out to every person that even sounded like they might be part of the metaphysical community, part of the spiritual community. And I, I just started reaching out and saying, Hey, I'm moving here.

I'm trying to find community. And I was shocked how many of those people were like, you're just calling random people and saying these things out loud. And I was like, [00:12:00] Yes. And they're like, do you know what happens? Like if you post to social media about reiki or you like you get banned, like everybody gangs up on you.

You do not talk about this stuff. Our community does not talk about this stuff. You don't just go up to people and start talking about this. And I was like, well, I'm not from here, so I'm gonna do me like, I'm gonna do this because. Yeah, like it's that intense. And so I just continued doing that, just reaching out to people.

And I ended up finding a spiritual center that has all kinds of different alternative practitioners. They do sound healing and talk about lum crystals and extraterrestrials and chant, and do all the WOOWOO things that I do. And so I started getting involved in that community and then Spirit came in and said, Jen, You are always placed in these places where you can make a bigger impact and you can bridge that gap between different spiritual realms and you can [00:13:00] allow, you can help people to see that you're no different.

You just believe differently. And so, It's, it's always on my heart to just be a good person. Just get involved in the community, be a good person. And so after that message kept coming in, cuz sometimes I'm a little bit dense and I'm like, Nope, nope, nope. I'm gonna stick to the people that I know are gonna accept me here.

Um, after I finally started to accept that, I like went and got involved in the chamber and I went and started doing all these things. Things. And that's where I really started having the conversations where people were like, I don't understand. You're such a good person. And I'm like,

Will: what? Yes, I'm,

Karen: I'm like,

Jenn: exactly, that is the exact point that I wanna make.

It's like, just because we believe differently doesn't make one of us a bad person and one of us a good person or one of us going to hell and one of us going to heaven. Like, so it's allowing yourself to be open to those experiences and. Moving forward. And,

Karen: and I wonder sometimes how really, when it comes down to the actual core of [00:14:00] the beliefs, how really different are they?

It's kind of like, and I'm, I'm kicking myself cause I'm trying to think of the name, but the original, okay. Lion King, that was based off of what, play. Was it Shakespeare? It was

Jenn: like King Lear or something like that.

Karen: So same story. Totally different.

You could not get a kid to sit through King Lear. I mean, it's, it's the same kind of different characters, different this and that, but it ultimately, the core is pretty much the same, which I think, you know, love, community, helping each other, all of those, that's the core of it. And I think that's the same, even though it looks completely

Jenn: different.

Mm. Yeah. Well, and sometimes it doesn't even look completely different. It's just they that people have been taught that it does. So like when you break things down and you actually look at it, most of the time it is the same principles. Mm-hmm. Like it really is the same principles, it's just. Slightly shifted in focus, or there's another belief in there like, these people aren't allowed to do this and these people aren't allowed to do [00:15:00] that, or, mm-hmm.

Will: So, we just released not long ago, an episode about Edgar Casey, and he was a devout Christian who was the godfather of metaphysics. Right? Yeah. The sleeping prophet. The guy was a devout. Religious man. Yeah. And yet he mixed these two worlds perfectly. So it can be done. It's just a matter of whether someone's willing to actually take the time to do it.

Exactly. Or steps to do it.

Jenn: Exactly. And it's beautiful when you can create those communities where there's people who have different beliefs or can teach each other or help you experience something different. Right. And. That's part of my goal here is to give people space so that they can experience different belief systems.

They can experience different things. They can explore who they are without feeling like they're going to be persecuted for it or without feeling like it's. It's a horrible thing for them to look elsewhere. Mm-hmm. to fill their heart.

Will: How long ago did you move?

Jenn: so I [00:16:00] moved down here last

Karen: May.

Will: Okay, so like a year, like very recent.

Yep. Have you found a lot of people that are open to these conversations or have you more found that the, the banning side of

Jenn: things? Um, I have not been banned anywhere yet. Ok. That's a plus. That's a plus. I don't know if it's because they like that I help out at events and do other things, but worker, worker, I'm just gonna keep doing it.

Yeah.

Will: She's the only one who'll do the dishes. Just leave her alone.

Jenn: Yeah. So, um, I've found different pockets of communities. Um, I've found some spiritual communities that I've gotten involved in so that it's not like a constant conversation. Um, but I've also found a lot of people that are like, okay, like now that we've gotten the weird parts outta the way, we've had this conversation about how I think you're going to hell.

And like, we've talked about it, we've walked through it. It's fine. Um, like it was very interesting the first time I came down here and went to a chamber meeting in the [00:17:00] morning, like the first thing that they do is they do a prayer and the pledge of allegiance. Mm-hmm. And I was not expecting that at a chamber meeting, and so I was like, oh, and.

I'm fine with that, but I was like, what?

Will: Yeah, you totally should have gotten up and called the corners

for those who don't know, calling the corners. It's a, it's a wicked tradition, the pagan tradition, how you start the rituals. You, you bring in the four elements and all that kind, but anyway. Mm-hmm. That would've been really, Really interesting how, how they would've reacted to that.

Jenn: Wow. So it's been interesting because as I've been at more of these meetings, I talk about like mindset and I talk about positivity and I talk about energy, and I don't go too woowoo in the actual meetings.

Mm-hmm. Um, But I've had people approach me and say, tell me more. Tell me more about this. So they'll ask me questions, and then I hand 'em a card and it says, intuitive on the back of it in one spot, and mm-hmm. Every time all of 'em go, [00:18:00] oh. And then they like, so, Stick the card in their pocket and they're like, yeah, we'll talk later.

They'll just walk away. Nobody's walking. Ok. So it's, it's one of those things where they have a reaction to some of the words. Mm-hmm. But they're very curious about the energy behind it and the loving messages that are coming through. And so that's one of the things I always talk about people when you're coming out of the spiritual closet, Talk to people where they're at.

Like, nobody's gonna argue with you when you start talking about the love that you feel for people. Nobody's gonna come at you when you say loving and kind things. So bring in those things first. Mm-hmm. Bring them into that energy and interact with them in that space first. And then when the other questions come up, they're, they already know, like who you are at a heart level.

Rather than coming at you immediately with, oh my gosh, you're a psychic. Oh my gosh, you're this, oh my gosh, you're that. Mm-hmm. It's, it's more about who [00:19:00] you are and who your character is, rather than what your beliefs are at that point. Right.

Will: So what I'm hearing you say is that you have to be willing to be crammed into a closet with someone to have these conversations so that it doesn't get in the open too

Karen: soon.

Maybe it's just a little corner. It's like behind the bookshelf. I wouldn't say the closet. Cause they're kind of coming outta the closet just a little.

Will: Yeah. But you gotta join them in the closet so that they can feel comfortable right in their closet. But yeah,

Jenn: make sure you have the right coat size for them.

Just see Now

Karen: think about South Park

Will: Oh boy. We are going down some weird, weird are roads here. Uh, I'm not sure where the universe wants us to go, but I'm having a ton of fun, Jen, talking to you. and we haven't even touched on the fact that you are a medium and a lot of other stuff. We need to take a break, but when we come back, this conversation is just starting to heat up now.

So stay with us cuz when we come back we're gonna talk to Jen about her gifts and how she's using those in this, spiritual closeted, region of the country. Standby.

 [00:20:00]

Will: Another week we find another listener corner Review to share with you. This time is from Emmy. Ang left us a five star review with the title. So good they go on to say, it's so refreshing to hear about all of the different modalities out there. Love to listen to Will and Karen on my way to work. The night shift.

I get my night started with their great attitudes and wonderful personalities. Emmy Ang, thank you so much we really appreciate the time that you took to leave us a review. And if you'd like to hear your review read on the air, please feel free to go to skeptic meditation.com or Apple Podcasts or Pod Chaser.

You can leave a review in any one of those sites and you never know. You might just hear your words read in a future episode.

Uh, We are back we're [00:21:00] talking to Jen Biema, who moved from Minnesota, who is, was somewhat open to metaphysics and spirituality to Oklahoma, which is in the middle of the Bible Belt, and suddenly found herself having to jump herself into a closet to talk to people about spiritual subjects so that they weren't, burn her at the stake.

Jen, I've been having such a fun. Time chatting with you. but we haven't touched on the fact that you are actually a medium. You actually have, you channeled all kinds of entities and ets and things like that. Has that come out in Oklahoma that you do these things?

Jenn: Um, well, it's on my website. It's on my business cards.

Um, I have had conversations with clients who've come in for massage. I'm a massage therapist as well. I lead with that here. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes. Um, um, but people will ask me questions about it and then they kind of shy away from it here. Um, I for a really long time in Minnesota, I didn't talk about that part of what I did.

I [00:22:00] would talk about the intuitive piece when I was doing massage, when I was working. I would talk about that, but I wouldn't approach the fact that I talk to Jesus on a regular basis, that I have different guides who come in and speak through me. And sometimes they would give messages to clients and clients had no idea that somebody else was coming through.

Um, it's, it's one of those things where if it's meant to come up, I'll let it come up. I'll, if, if Jesus wants to give a message to somebody, he is welcome to do that. Um, and it's, it's been really interesting when I've had people who were really skeptical, come in and really fearful of the things that I do.

Um, I've had several times where Jesus has stepped in and said, can you please tell this person this? And I deliver that message and everything changes. Uh. And a good way. Or a good way? In a good way. That's in a

Will: good way. That's good. Cause my initial thought would be someone who doesn't really believe in this stuff in Oklahoma, in [00:23:00] the Bible belt, you say, Jesus is telling me to tell you this coming through me.

They go, oh, you are definitely the devil. Cause only people that can talk to Jesus are priests. Right.

Jenn: Well, and unless it's something that they needed to hear and that they were praying about that morning. Mm. Um, and that's typically what happens is if I allow myself to be in a vulnerable, Space and allow myself to bring those messages through, because that's a huge part of it.

Like if I'm feeling scared that they're gonna judge me, I might not allow it to come through. And then these beautiful things don't happen. Right? But when I allow myself to be in that space and give the messages that are coming through, Everything changes. It's a game changer.

Karen: So now you're bringing up Jesus.

Mm-hmm. And a lot of people, I think, would find that as, that's a bridge that makes it okay. But a lot of people, you know, might think differently. Mm-hmm. How would you. Define Jesus, that Jesus that's coming to you. Is it the traditional, you know, son of God, Jesus, or is Jesus just a teacher? [00:24:00] Like

Jenn: A little bit of all of those things. Um, so. My, my teachings that I have received are that the traditional Jesus that's in the Bible isn't a hundred percent accurate. There's a lot of perception that was placed into those stories.

There's a lot of belief that is wrapped around all of the stories that are in the Bible that isn't a hundred percent accurate, but it was a way to connect with the people in those times, um, as is. Everything that is taught spiritually at this point, it's a way to connect with people and bring them back to source energy.

So, so while I believe that the Jesus of the Bible existed, there are aspects of that that I do not believe are accurate. Um, when I do talk to him, he does confirm that that not everything that is there is accurate. Um, and so, He is a being who is here to teach us, who is meant to [00:25:00] bridge that gap and bring us back to our source energy.

So bring us back to God, whatever name you give that. Mm-hmm. Um, and he has, when I met him, I didn't know who he was as a child. I was not. In religion. Um, but a lot of my family was, and I was judged because of that. I don't know how many times of, as a child, I was told I was going to hell. Mm-hmm. And so my thought of Jesus as a child was that he is gonna be there to help the judgment.

He's gonna be there to be mean to me because I'm a horrible person and I'm going to hell. And so, As a child, when I was introduced to him, another spirit that I spoke with when I was a child, introduced me to him, introduced me to him as J not as Jesus.

Will: Did he have a backwards

Karen: cap on? He did not.

Jenn: I wish he would've.

Now I'm gonna ask him to dress. Its. [00:26:00] I didn't know that it was Jesus, because his presence was very different than the presence that I was given from the beliefs of people around me. And so as I got to know him more, I actually found out who he was still as a child. But I was angry. I was angry that he lied to me.

I was angry that I didn't know who he was. And. It was a big deal for me. And so my relationship with him has been very strong since I was a child. I just didn't know that's who it was. Mm. And so as I get older and people question, um, my relationship with Jesus and my relationship with God, my relationship with Source, I always go back to as a child, he would come to me and say, you know, the truth.

You know where you're going. Like you are on a path of love and peace. You are not going to hell. Like he [00:27:00] would remind me all the time as a child, and that is the energy that I wish to impart to other people. Like when they do have questions and they have concerns about me talking about Jesus and me having a relationship with Jesus, so many people have come to me and said, I wanna understand how to have a relationship like that.

Once they understand that my relationship isn't one of blasphemy and like just saying everything is wrong about the church, cuz that's not at all what I believe. Mm-hmm. Um, it, it creates a different experience and it creates a different, um, conversation with people around that. Right. But I do believe that the Jesus that I talked to is a little bit of all of that.

Will: Right. No, that, that makes great sense. Mm-hmm. And, and Karen and I are both big believers that there's a lot of different paths out there. Mm-hmm. Religion, Christianity happens to be one of those paths, or actually it's one of many paths, right? There's many paths inside of Christianity. Yeah. But [00:28:00] regardless, it speaks to you.

If Jesus is this person that you really have a relationship with and it works for you, then we say, go for it. We support you 100%. The challenge with us is when someone tells us that that's the. Only path. Yeah. Yeah. That's when we have a problem. So have you encountered a lot of that where, you are on the wrong path and would need to get you back into the fold?

Jenn: Um, with people saying that about me or me feeling that way on my own? Either one. Both. Oh. Um, I've had other people tell me that. Where they think that I am, I'm on the wrong path. I've had many people ask to do exorcisms. I've had many people get out of here. Yeah. In Minnesota. I had some exercise you, yep.

I had a couple of those when I was younger. Um, those were always interesting conversations.

Karen: Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, I think I might have just done it just to see, see what happens.

Will: Stuck stuff. A bunch of pee soup in your [00:29:00] mouth and,

Karen: well, I didn't

Jenn: wanna, I didn't wanna make it worse, but No, so, so I had a lot of those conversations where people were very judgmental about it. Mm-hmm. Um, I've never felt like I was on the wrong path. Like, that's just not been Sure. Part of my experience, I've always known. I mean, when you constantly have people in your ear telling you, Hey, like, check yourself right now.

Like, what are you thinking? What are you believing? Um, it, it makes it a little bit easier when you listen.

Will: And so you're, you're a medium, but you don't do mediumship readings. Is there a reason for that?

Jenn: Um, there is, um, I had a lot of trauma around that as a child, and so there was a lot of fear. For a long time I didn't wanna do that because I didn't want the people saying, prove it.

Prove it. Prove it. Mm-hmm. Um, spirit has come in many times and said, you know what? That's not what we're here to do. We're not here to be a game for people. We're not gonna prove it if they ask us to prove it. [00:30:00] Um, which I argue with them every time. I'm like, you're making me look like really bad. Just, just come and tell them.

Um, But I have learned in the last probably five, six years that sometimes people hold onto their loved ones after they passed so much that they continually seek out mediums to speak to their loved ones. Mm. And it keeps them stuck. And there are so many other tools that I have and so many other opportunities that I have to work with people to help them heal, that sometimes bringing in the mediumship piece is not the piece that they need, because then they're gonna rely on that because they know that they can always go back and talk to that person through somebody else.

Mm-hmm. I'd rather teach people how to interact on their own and how to feel and sense what's going on around them rather than be the constant conduit that they're coming back to paying money to, to do something that they could do themselves.

Will: Now, is that [00:31:00] akin to like a psychic development or mediumship development?

Mm-hmm. Course that you do, you offer them, so you teach people how to channel their own loved ones? Yep.

Jenn: So I, I've started doing that recently. Um, I used to do it, just talk to people about it. I'm, I'm somebody who tries to help people anyway that I possibly can. If they come to me, I'm, I'm gonna teach them what I can teach them.

I'm a teacher by nature and. Just, I just love helping people. Um, so people have been asking me for years to develop a program, so I'm in the beginning phases of that right now, um, to help people so that they don't have to come to me all the time.

Karen: Yeah, that's a message that we get from a lot of the people that we talk to.

Everybody has this ability. You just have to connect. What would you say is the biggest block that people have that keeps us from being able to connect?

Jenn: Um, I think the biggest block is their own fear. People are so afraid that if they do connect, they're either going to get it wrong, they're gonna be judged, or [00:32:00] they're going to open up something that they can't close.

Like that's the biggest thing I've heard from so many people. If I open this up, what if I can't close it? What if I get overwhelmed? What if I get too much information? And you can always close it. Once you know how to open yourself and close yourself off, you can always close that down if you don't. Feel comfortable

Will: with it.

That's interesting. I'm, I'm in the other camp where you have bring it, bring it, bring it. Come on. Why? Why aren't you bringing it? Come on. What the heck? Right. I get frustrated. I'm, I'm much more of a Mm. I don't know if I believe this. I mean, I'm thinking I'm making this up, so,

Karen: uh, yeah, I was just gonna ask you that.

How do you know that? That it's actual messages that you're not just making it up. Yeah. How do you tell?

Jenn: Yeah. Um, so when I'm channeling, so when I actually allow people to speak through me, the words are so much different. The mannerisms are different. Um, I, I record any sessions that I do online, so I've had the opportunity to go back sometimes and look at it and I'm like, who is that?

Oh my gosh, what is going [00:33:00] on? That's awesome. Um, but. It was kind of testing it out, like allowing myself to give messages to people and then every time that somebody'd say it was accurate. Okay. That's another check mark. That's another check mark. So it's, it's really just practice. I mean, anything that you do, you're not gonna trust that you do it well until you've done it, and often you've practiced.

Makes sense.

Will: And, and I, I suppose when other people tell you, yes, you completely changed, you had different demeanor about you, your, your words were different. It didn't fit what you typically say. Yeah. Uh, when you get enough of that positive reinforcement, you start to go, okay, maybe, maybe there's something here.

Jenn: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not a very good actress. I'm horrible at it. So like for me to like try to do those things, there's no way in heck that I would do that. No way. Because I get very shy. I'm like, what? Oh gosh, I look silly. I know. I look silly. So I just, I would not be the [00:34:00] person who's in theater. I would not be the person who's on.

Yeah. Like I can talk. But you ask me to act No way.

Will: And it's funny cuz we hear that a lot from a lot of people. Yeah. Like scientific people going, yeah, this is bad shit. Crazy. But it's coming outta my mouth. I don't understand it either. Right. To me it seems like it's crazy to me, but yet there it is, there is a spirit baby sitting in the corner and I very clearly see it.

Mm-hmm. How do you discern that? Like how do you, you talk about shutting it off. we've heard time and time again that this entity's here and it's not leaving me alone. I need an angel to come help get that entity off of me. should you not attempt to do this until you learn how to close it off?

Are you opening it up? Some sort of can of

Jenn: worms? Um, I mean it depends on the, the, your own boundaries and what you know about yourself. A lot of the time when people have these experiences and they have a lot of fearful experiences, or they have attachments, they have things that are coming into their lives, they're allowing it at some level.

Mm. [00:35:00] Um, so most of the time it is teaching yourself to trust yourself and to set boundaries for yourself. Usually if you have poor boundaries in the spirit realm, you also have poor boundaries in the human realm. So if, if you are seeing something in the spiritual world, It's probably a mirror for you on the way that you're interacting in your life.

And internally looking at what's going on for you internally is going to help you manage the spiritual stuff. Ah, more completely. And if

Karen: you're not really good at setting boundaries, you can just use what I use, which is avoidance. I avoid bad. Situations and bad people again, back,

Will: now we're back to la, la, la, la, la, la, la.

Karen: Hey, it works for me. So then I would

Jenn: avoid the bad spirits and just, right. I'm not listening to you.

Karen: You're not there, but

I'm

Karen: at it. It doesn't, it doesn't exist. Exist.

Jenn: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, [00:36:00] and so the other piece of that though is being very strong with your knowing, like knowing that you don't want this to be part of your life.

You don't want this specific entity or this. Specific spirit stepping into your life and being very clear on that and setting that boundary and holding that boundary. Um, and that's where a lot of people waiver is. They'll say, oh no, I really, I don't want this being to be here. But then at some level, they're gaining something from that.

It's either they're gaining some type of, um, interaction with people around them where they're getting, they're getting soothing, they're getting calming, like. There. There's a lot of things that we can gain from perceived negative experiences, and if you don't know yourself and you don't know that you are seeking something else outside of you, those things are gonna continue happening until you're firm in your boundaries and your firm in knowing yourself.[00:37:00]

Will: That makes so much sense. It absolutely does. And that explains everything for me. I have no boundaries, so

Karen: dam it.

Jenn: Avoid, avoid.

Will: Alright, well, uh, we've already talked about the fact that you're a medium, but you're also, you're an author, you're a massage therapist, an intuitive massage therapist. You're a psychic healer, intuitive artist.

You do. All kinds of stuff. So I wanna touch on, one of them specifically, and that, oh, and you're also a podcast host, but you have a podcast, about the Woo, with, with a partner. Mm-hmm. Yep. first of all, what's the name of the podcast? We can put it on the show notes for you. It's called,

Jenn: they Call Us.

Woo. W o o.

Karen: Yeah.

Will: Oh, I I thought it was like Wu-Tang Clan they call it. Woo. That's why

Karen: I spelled it out.

Will: Alright. But you're also an author and, the book that you wrote is, astounding to me. It's one that I'm actually going to get because, it sounds right up my alley. It's called A Life Lived Medium.

Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] A Psychic Journey From Fearful to Almost Fear and it kind of recounts your story. growing up, having access to these gifts and, and having to deal with these kinds of things, what led you to write this book?

Jenn: Um, so I actually didn't write it to publish it. I wrote it to get out my own emotions and learn from my experiences.

And I started writing, started writing, started writing, and then I went to an event at my attorney's office. She had me doing chair massage there, and there was a woman. In my chair and this man, the spirit came in and he kept telling me. He kept bugging me the whole time she was there, and I'm like, I'm in a professional setting.

I am not delivering messages right now.

Will: Jen, you need set boundaries.

Karen: That's true. It

Jenn: doesn't sound like you could go anywhere there. I was trying to do that, and he just kept, he just kept on. He's like, you need to tell her this. You need to tell her this. You need to tell her this. So I delivered this message to her after she [00:39:00] got off my chair.

And she just started crying and she said to me, she goes, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I was like, No, but I've been writing some stuff and she's like, I'm a publisher and I wanna publish your book. Oh. And I was like, well, crap. That went

Will: like crap. Uh, you just said you are gonna have a book.

Yeah. Uh, you have no choice

Jenn: in the matter. And I've wanted to write a book since I was a child, but I was never somebody who did a lot of reading. My grandma was a librarian. Everybody in my family read and I didn't. So I felt like it wasn't okay for me to write a book because they needed their opportunity first because they put in the work reading and.

I don't know where I got that idea, but I did. Um, and so when she brought that up to me, I was like, okay, I guess this is my time. And so I went home and I continued writing, and when the, um, editor got it, [00:40:00] she messaged me and she said, Jen, you're censoring yourself. There's pieces missing here. And I was like, I, I wrote everything that I remember.

Mm. And I was kind of upset. And so I put it away for like nine months. Wow. And then, um, I went back to it one day and my guides and spirit came in and they're like, it's time for you to start actually looking at these memories. Mm. And so I sat in my meditation room. Sobbing for like eight hours. Oh, I think you're doing wrong.

Well, I think I did it right because I finally started actually looking at some of the most traumatic moments. Of my spiritual experiences as a child and started remembering other pieces and started seeing who was in the room with me and the support that I actually had. Mm-hmm. And it was so cathartic for me and it was so helpful in my process moving forward.[00:41:00]

I finished, I finished my book in that session. Sent it back off to the editor. She sent it back to me with all kinds of red marks because she said, you write like you speak and you're horrible with grammar. Um, but, but I got it published and, um, once I published I was like, eh, if anybody reads it, that's fine.

If they don't, that's fine too. I got it out there. I got to heal. And I had so many people reach out to me afterwards and say, this is exactly what I needed. Like I've had these experiences since I was young and nobody will talk to me about it, and this is so helpful. And that was like the best thing that I could have heard.

Is the best thing that could have happened? Yeah. With me publishing that, although now everybody thinks they know everything about me because they've seen these really vulnerable spots of my life. But still, it was worth it. Well, it was interesting

Will: that your publisher knew intuitively that you're mm-hmm.

Not. Disclosing [00:42:00] some things. So it sounds like that person has some hidden talents themselves. Have they? Yeah. Have you kind of prod them in that, Hey, I've got a psychic medium, uh, class coming up soon

Jenn: or No? No, but it was actually the editor and I haven't talked to her for a long time and she was very, she was very open.

Mm. So, Interesting. She might be somebody I reach out to again.

Will: Absolutely. I would, I would definitely recommend it. so yeah, I'm gonna definitely get the book cause it sounds right out my alley. Mm-hmm. but on top of being an author, an intuitive massage therapist and all these, uh, medium we already talked about, you do this type of healing, which I've never heard of before.

You kind of mix a bunch of different things together. massage therapy, energy work, shamanic healing, sound therapy, channeling, I mean, holy smokes. how did you start? Bringing all these things into one healing section. All in one. All in one? Yeah. Oh,

Karen: wow. Yeah. Like a fruit salad. Yeah.

Jenn: Oh, that's better.

Not, I am a little fruity sometimes. Just a lot of great

Karen: elements that come out [00:43:00] into a delicious Yep. Kinda product.

Will: Uh, you, you would never know. Karen Cooks. Huh?

Jenn: From the heart baby? No. Um, so when I was in Minnesota, I didn't wanna tell everybody about my gifts, so I would start integrating things into massage.

Like I said, down here, I lead with massage first. Mm-hmm. Massage was my cover in Minnesota for a very long time until I could no longer hide because Spirit was coming in so clearly like, You tell this person, you tell this person now. And I had poor boundaries back then. Um, but so I started incorporating some of that work into the sessions that I was doing because Spirit was coming in so clearly for me saying, This person needs sound healing.

This person needs to hear this message, this person needs this. And so I just started incorporating it into my massage sessions and I ended up with a really strong fo following in Minnesota [00:44:00] because people knew that they could come to me and receive exactly what they were needing in that moment rather than just a massage.

Not to say that massage isn't awesome because I love massage, so. But me who doesn't? Like, sometimes people need more in that session. Mm-hmm. And if I can provide that service for them and I can provide something that's going to help them heal more quickly, I'm gonna do that. Right. So when I have a client on the table, if they're open to receiving something other than massage, um, I will.

Ask their guides, I'll ask Spirit to come in and provide whatever, whatever we need for that session.

Will: Okay. So, so you actually ask them if, if you're open to it, it's not like, like, Ooh, what was that kind of thing?

Jenn: Yeah, no. Okay. They know what they're signing up for before when they get on the table, you don't be

Karen: laying there naked and all of a sudden, whoa.

Jenn: You sort drumming around you. Yeah.

Karen: What's happening?

Jenn: no, so, so it is one of those things where I [00:45:00] connect in with their guides. I ask their higher self for permission.

I'll talk to them ahead of time. They usually know if they're signing up for that type of session. Here in Oklahoma, I have two separate services. I have massage services. And I have my intuitive massage services and my cosmic realignment services. So like I have different services they can choose from so they know before they are getting on the table.

Right. Um, and yeah, whatever happens during a session, it's all divinely guided. Um, and we just make sure that, that people are receiving what they need to receive while they're on the table. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah.

Karen: You're like the one stop shop for Oklahoma

Jenn: intuitive spiritual health

Karen: ing

Will: our us. circling it back to the beginning of the conversation again about your move.

What prompted you to go to Oklahoma?

Jenn: Um, my fiance lives here. Ah, good reason. Mm-hmm. It's man, so, yeah.

Karen: Yeah. [00:46:00]

Will: Or a woman, you know. Or a woman. Let's not be, uh, judgemental. Right? Right.

Karen: Yep.

Jenn: Yep. So, so he, he is here and, um, I was feeling very called, like there was somewhere else I was needing to be for the last few years.

I was feeling like I was gonna end up moving somewhere. And, um, I ended up meeting him and had no intention of moving to Oklahoma. I, I actually loved living in Minnesota, all the trees in the water and the beauty that's there. Um, and so when I ended up moving here, I'm like, okay, I heard you guys two years ago, I guess this is where I was supposed to go.

Mm-hmm.

Will: So I'm here. You're supposed to help them to awaken in, in the Bible Belt. So thank you for the service that you're providing, cuz that thank you is not for the week of heart. I

Karen: have, I've been wondering the whole time when we're talking about the chamber meetings. Mm-hmm. And as a, a psychic and medium and channeler and intuitive, you have all these people that probably a lot of them are quite [00:47:00] conservative and, you know, maybe.

Leaning kind of far one direction or another. Do you see like their energies and you're like, Ooh, I don't wanna talk to that guy. Or like, do, do, do you get bombarded with like the, the different energies from people or do you just shut it off and you're strictly business in those

Jenn: meetings? So a lot of the time I will dim, I will dim it so that I'm not completely shut off.

I'm, I'm not one of the people who really likes to completely shut down when everything's quiet. I panic because I'm so used to having so much chatter in the background. Mm-hmm. Um, there, there haven't been any times where I've been like, oh, I'm not gonna talk to that person. There have been times where I've noticed that somebody, um, walks into the room and their energy's different than it normally is.

Um, and typically I end up finding out later that something was going on with them that day. They were having a really stressful moment, or somebody was in the hospital, or, yeah. So, so usually it's, it's not, I try really hard not to jump into people's energy [00:48:00] fields, um, without permission. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I have very strong moral and ethical beliefs around what you can and can't do as a psychic.

Mm-hmm. Um, Because nobody wants you just jumping into their business and being like, Hey, let me tell you all about yourself. Um, but sometimes when you're walking into a room of people, it's, it's hard not to see like the aura that's around them or the energy that they're carrying with and feel that energy.

Mm-hmm. Um, if I notice that something is off, I typically will shut down so that I'm not diving into those, um, Negative in their personal business. Yeah. Like if I find out their personal business later, that's good. Like I can have a conversation with them about it then, but I'm not going to energetically tap in and be like, oh, what's going on with them today?

Like, right, right. Yeah.

Will: Yeah. Makes sense. Now you also have a website that you sent over to Spirit and herb.com and that's where you have all your [00:49:00] services there and things like that. Mm-hmm. Are these things that people can take advantage of, remotely or is most of your stuff really just you gotta come sit on on my table?

Jenn: Nope. So really the only thing that I don't do remotely is massage. Um, and that wouldn't feel as good. Must be weird.

Karen: I was really looking forward to it. Put the iPad on your back.

Jenn: I wish I could, but I haven't quite figured that out yet. Well,

Will: the world of virtual reality is right around the corner. You never know.

Jenn: Yeah, so, so everything else I do online, um, I usually do things through Zoom, record it, and then they get a recording of all their sessions so they can go back and listen later. Wonderful. Um, because a lot of the time in the moment as people are trying to heal something, you don't remember what was said.

Right. So, so they receive what they were meant to receive in that moment, and then they can come back at two or later and listen to the messages that were provided that are for

Will: later. Gotcha. Yeah. And you have graciously extended a discount to skeptic me physician listeners. Yes. Uh, [00:50:00] we are not going to reveal what that code is here.

If you want to access the discounts and it's not a 5% discount, it is a nice discount for, them to. Check out your services, go ahead and sign up for our community. It's totally free. you just have to be okay with us sending you an email Once a week. We don't bother you, we don't sell you anything.

We don't do anything like that. Just join our, skeptic medication community and you will have access to not just Jen's discount codes, but a lot of our past guests discount codes so that you can experience their services, for yourself in a much more cost effective way. Thank you for that, by the way.

Yes, of course. All right, so we are woefully out of time, but I really want to hear about they call us. Woo. What kind of topics? Is it similar to what we do or do you just go deep on in the end of the Woo?

Jenn: Well, so. I talk a lot cuz I'm chatty. Um, like I said, I like to teach, so we pick topics that people have asked us about, so it can be any woowoo topic.

Um, we do have guests that come [00:51:00] on sporadically. Lately we've been doing a lot more, um, Of just Tammy and I talking, Tammy's my co-host. Um, I've been in the woo woo realm for a very long time. Tammy is newer to the Woo and she actually approached me and said, Hey, I'm thinking about doing this podcast and I want you to be on it with me.

And I was like, oh my gosh. I. Because she told me she wanted it to be, they call us Woo. And I was like, I was developing a product line that was all products that had woo in the title. So, but I hadn't launched it. And I was like, this is why, because it, they're gonna go with our, they call us Woo um, line.

But, so there's all kinds of weird woo puns that I have put on everything I love. I love puns. I love

Will: that coupons. You gotta have, you gotta have Keanu on your website going, woo,

Jenn: I'm gonna work on that. I'm work on that. That would be awesome. Yeah. But so, so we started talking about all the woowoo topics [00:52:00] and we dive deep into a lot of things and talk about things.

That people can get a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit spicy about. Mm. Um, but I'm willing to talk about those things from a spiritual perspective and a human perspective. And both Tammy and I are on the same page, that we just want people to have the conversations and have a place to talk about these things and hear about these things where it feels safe for them.

Karen: that's fantastic. And I have just one more question before we go. You were talking about getting outta the spiritual closet, which now I'm kind of thinking it's more like you're bringing them in, but the closet is like the tardis, so it's really huge inside. but what would you say to someone who is, kind of really having these feelings but just doesn't.

Really wanna get out there. They're concerned about judgment. What, what advice would you give to someone?

Jenn: So, I always tell people, just feel into your heart. Like stay heart-centered. Um, most of the time when people are feeling fear, it's because they're on the verge of breaking through something. If they're scared that they're gonna be judged, there's judgment within their heart [00:53:00] too.

Like I said earlier, we get mirrors. There's a mirror outside of us of what's going on inside. So if you're judging yourself about it and you feel like, like there's something wrong with it, you're gonna receive that back. Um, so the first step is always looking within yourself, um, and figuring out where you're judging yourself and where you're not holding yourself responsible for the thoughts and the feelings that you have.

Um, and then find another person who is in. In a spiritual role and talk to them about it first. Once you start getting more comfortable talking to one person, it becomes easier. Everything's about practice, everything's about experiencing life fully, and once we can start taking those steps to move forward, it's much easier for us to walk through the fears that we have.

Right. Yeah. Then you

Karen: also build that community and you can walk through it together. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Will: Yeah. In the Hindu tradition, it is very, in fact, they say you cannot reach enlightenment without [00:54:00] having a guru to help you lead the way. Mm-hmm. So that, that makes a lot of sense. Mm-hmm. Jen, this has been fantastic.

I've had such a fun time chatting with you. I know we're gonna be friends for a long time after this. Yay. Wish you the very best there in Oklahoma or Minnesota, wherever you want to do your stuff. You have now officially gained a new subscriber on your show. I'm really looking forward to hearing that.

and thank you so much for the service you're providing there. You're helping people wake up all across the. the state of Oklahoma, and, and across the, the world now, by, being willing to come on the show and talk about the stuff that you do. So thank you for

Jenn: that.

Thank you. Thank you both so much. I'm so grateful that I could be here today. Oh,

Will: we really enjoyed talking to you. Pleasure. It's been our, and, and we'll talk to you again really soon.

And a huge thank you to you. Yes, you the person that hit play on this episode. We know that there are tons of options out there, and having you decide to come along on our journey of discovery with us is an absolute honor for us. We hope you've enjoyed this conversation as much as we have. If you did [00:55:00] and you feel called to give back, We invite you to visit our website at SkepticMetaphysician.com, where you can donate to the show or subscribe as a member through our Buy me a coffee campaign.

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It will help get the word out about us, and it might just change [00:56:00] someone's life for the better. Well, that's all for now, but we'll see you on the next episode of the Skeptic Meta Physician. Until then, take care.