Exposing Con Artists and Cults Preying on the Vulnerable

Will & Karen: [00:00:00] All right, Karen. Yes. Let me ask you this. What do you call someone that mixes tarot cards, feng shui, ancient Sumerian texts, and a corporate BS detector in one person? Busy. Busy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, before I started researching this week's guest, I would have said a really confused fortune teller, but no, you actually get the skeptical shaman and she's here today to expose the con artists and cults lurking in the woo world while teaching us how to use ancient practices to, oh, I don't know, boost your business or out negotiate your boss.

Well, I mean, yeah. That would be good. Well, since I'm looking at you because you're sometimes my boss. I was just gonna say you're the boss So, how does it feel about that? I've actually it actually excites me because I'm thinking she might Actually be able to teach me how to use the tarot cards to help me finally win an argument with my boss But she also has feng shui tips to avoid the zombie apocalypse and that's something that's [00:01:00] Or she calls it a cosmic rebirth in 2024.

And I mean, who couldn't use some cosmic rebirth? All right. Well, get ready folks. Cause this episode is spirituality meets skeptical meets shamanic mic drops. If you're looking for a no nonsense way to crack into the world of the woo, this might just be the episode for you.

My name is Will, and I'm Karen, and unlike Mulder and Scully, we both want to believe. So we've embarked on a journey of discovery. We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical world. We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even joined a coven of witches.

And, wait, you joined a coven? Yep, all in the interest of finding something, anything, that will prove that there's something beyond this physical, three dimensional world we all live in. This is The Skeptic Metaphysicians.

Hey there, it's Will. Just stepping in here for a second to [00:02:00] ask you for a favor. See, the main reason we do this show is to help others in their spiritual awakening, and nothing makes us happier than to hear or read messages from those that are resonating with the messages we're sharing on the show. So if you have a moment, we'd love for you to contribute to the show by heading to skepticmetaphysician.

com and sending us a voicemail or an email from our website, or if you prefer, We love for you to leave us a review on Apple podcasts or any other podcasting platform that supports them. Karen and I love hearing from those that are moved to message us. It truly does fuel our passion. You are the reason we do this show and knowing what you like and don't like, that's going to help us craft the very best show we can so that we can help raise the vibration of the planet together.

Okay. I've kept you from the interview long enough, so let's get to it. Thanks for listening.

Will & Karen: Hey there, welcome back to the Skeptic Manifestations, I'm Will and I'm Karen. And today we're thrilled to [00:03:00] welcome Rachel White, better known as the Skeptical Shaman to the show. With a unique blend of corporate savvy and shamanic expertise, Rachel is here to call out the con artists and the cults lurking in the world of the Wu while offering us practical tips to help us navigate our own spiritual journey.

She's a modern rebrand of ancient wisdom, Combining practices like tarot, feng shui, and shamanism with deep insights into ancient texts and even Wu based conspiracy theories. Now Rachel's here to show us how spirituality isn't just personal, it can be a powerful enabler in business and life, all the while reminding us that thriving in a chaotic world isn't just possible.

It's our moral obligation. I like that. I do feel I'm falling short. Well, this is the perfect episode for you then. So if you've ever wondered how skepticism and spirituality can coexist, Rachel has the answers. Get ready for a conversation that's equal parts practical, profound and downright [00:04:00] fascinating.

Welcome to the show. Rachel, how are you today?

Rachel: I'm much better now. I have to take you guys with me everywhere.

Will & Karen: We do offer a service where you record our voice, our intros, and we send them to people. If you're interested, we'd be happy gonna carry a boombox on my shoulder and just play that because you make me sound a lot more dynamic and awesome than if you could see the reality of what the Skeptical Shaman is, it would bum you out. It's days in sweatpants. Making tinctures, answering emails.

Rachel: It's, uh,

Will & Karen: I was going to say, and a lot of little bottles, right,

Rachel: lot of little bottles.

It's, it's not the sexiest stuff all the

time, but

Will & Karen: Well, we did mention a couple of mic drops in the introduction and you just dropped the first one. Boom. Wah, wah. Like, how do you go from there? We're supposed to just supposed to be exciting and Oh my God. And incredible. And, uh, not a bummer,

Rachel. not a bummer. It's just, it's, it's, it's interesting. Have you guys ever had the experience of, it's a through the looking glass moment for me when [00:05:00] someone introduces you and lists, you know, you're like, what does that sound like? All those things. And I was like, schizophrenic on the bus.

Rachel: Um, that better than a crazy fortune

Will & Karen: teller. Yeah, I mean, it's, it really is something and it's funny because it sounds very disjointed and it sounds like a series of contradictions, just like the skeptical shaman, I picked that moniker for my podcast because I knew it was going to confuse people and if something confuses them, it intrigues them and, you know, Um, it's not a contradiction actually.

Rachel: And, you know, skepticism and spirituality are inextricably linked because I think skepticism is inherently curious and there's energy there about asking questions. And, you know, I used to be a good little atheist. I worked in corporate real estate and at consulting firms like Deloitte. And, you know, I thought I was smug, I thought I knew everything, I was like, Oh my God, these, you know, closed minded fundamentalists and these superstitious magical thinkers.

And then I had an experience that challenged that, and I knew if I [00:06:00] didn't invite that data in, I was just as closed minded and fundamentalist in my atheism as I saw the religious world at the time. And I always joke that atheism, I think, is a natural reaction to Catholic school.

including college.

Will & Karen: Right. I got kicked out after two weeks of Catholic school, so I wouldn't know if I I, I really fit

that bill, but,

Rachel: Several of my family members got kicked out of Catholic schools. It's a badge of honor. You've

Will & Karen: it is.

Rachel: special merit badge. And I joke that, I, you know, like I used to back in my smug atheism, say I got out early on good behavior, like it was prison or something. And I'm not Catholic now, obviously I'm a shaman, but, um, it's been a real adventure and a real journey.

Yeah. And it was fueled by skepticism and curiosity,

Will & Karen: Well, the first hint that I got that you were something different was when we first saw you, you were not wearing feathers and burning sage everywhere as a, as a shot. But before we started recording, we talked about the difference between skepticism and pragmatism or cynicism.

[00:07:00] And it's important to note the difference, right? We, the, the name of our show is the skeptic metaphysicians for a reason. We always talk about the fact that we're not the cynical meta physicians, we're the skeptic meta physicians because we are open, but we need a little bit more than just faith to go on things.

Right. So I assume it's the same with you.

Rachel: 100%. And, and nothing that I do is faith based, which, again, sounds nonsense to people. I say it's direct experience and evidence based. Now, that evidence isn't peer reviewed, um, quantitative metrics evidence. It's qualitative. Thank you. And I'm pumped about research that's happening and it's, it's really getting interesting, but yeah, when I work, like, I have a spiritual transformation coaching program and I work one on one with people. And one of the things we do is gather what I call data. And that data is immersive. It's experiential. And then, then we go and we do research, and then we test things, we stress test them, we go into practice sessions, [00:08:00] and it's really a way for them to empower themselves, to trust themselves. To be open minded, but also to use discernment.

And what parts of this are like shiny ball syndrome? What parts of this are nonsense versus what's, you know, the gray, the messy middle, what part of this might be real?

Will & Karen: Hmm. So would you say though that I mean it's not faith-based, but you have to have faith to believe in some of the outcomes of the testing.

Rachel: Um, I don't,

Will & Karen: I don't mean faith as in like religion. Spiritually. I don't mean like, yeah, like a religious faith, but just a belief. I mean, that it's true.

Rachel: for me, it's more. I'm open minded to the possibility and the data better impress me for me to pay attention to it and then, and then, you know, I almost skip belief and I go to knowing that's kind of the word I use like I know that that was a real experience for me. And I think that that's unique to every individual what you know is like your thing and I [00:09:00] don't think there's any way to convince another of a arcane spiritual experience you had.

Right? You can tell them about it, but

Will & Karen: but

that's an interesting, very interesting point. So then I'm dying to find out what was it that happened to you that gave you that knowing.

Rachel: it's creepy. Are you guys cool with

creepy?

Will & Karen: cool with creepy. Bring on the creep.

Rachel: so I was working at a global real estate company in my early 20s living in a studio apartment in what's called the Lincoln Park neighborhood in Chicago. And it was full of interesting characters, shall we say. It's buildings full of studio apartments generally are, and I'll leave it at that.

and I'm happy to be out of that building now. And I had a neighbor down the hallway, he was actually Native American. I'm part Native American. And he had a Filipino wife who had moved to this country and he was a drinker and he was such a heavy drinker that he would get alcohol delivered from a liquor store that was half a block away,

Will & Karen: Oh,

Rachel: so, and these are things you just see living in buildings with other people like that delivery happening regularly. And there was one [00:10:00] day that I, I came home and I felt kind of creepy. I don't know how else to describe it, but, um, Just something was uneasy and I was like double check the lock in the door before I went to bed.

And I remember being a little uncomfortable turning my light off to go to bed that first night. Second night, or second day rather, I wake up and there's people starting to gather outside of that apartment building and they look like they're related to the wife. And I go, Oh, she's like having a family visit or family reunion, family in town.

It's Chicago. People have family come stay with them and go see the city. Right. And that night when I went to bed, Much creepier feeling. And again, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in anything, despite having tons of experiences in childhood that I'd since dismissed as like a psychological reaction of my parents divorce, you know, you come up with all these really clever excuses and explanations.

And I slept with my light on that night. And I hadn't done that since early childhood. Now, the third night, or the third day, there's tons of people in the hallway and whatever. And I was like, I don't even know what's [00:11:00] going on anymore. I gotta get some sleep tonight. So now, now the, it's starting to, building tension, right?

And I'm laying in bed and I just didn't want to go to bed. I'm watching TV and I have my light on and I look over and I see a man's face. And what's weird about it is he wasn't like beautiful as in attractive to me, but I was, you know, like beautiful, like a statue, like a marble statue on the Louvre thing, like a perfect looking being.

Next thing I know, I feel something enter my mouth and start going down my throat and I go to say a word and I hear a voice right out of the exorcist come out of my, my throat.

Will & Karen: Oh, Karen's sleeping with the light on tonight. I sleep with the light on. And you're awake all night.

Rachel: and God, thank God, you know, Catholic church, hilarious. I started saying. A Hail Mary. I was like, if ever there was a time, just instinct or conditioning, programming, who knows what.

And I felt it exit my mouth. And I looked around me in every cabinet door. And this studio apartment had all of [00:12:00] these little doors and little French glass doors and cabinets. It was actually really cute. They were all open at precise 90 degree angles. And I called my mother and I told her what happened.

And she said, get out of the apartment. And mind you, it's like midnight, between midnight and one a. m. But we're in Chicago, so there's a 7 Eleven open across the street. And I knew it would be open. So I went there, drank horrible 7 Eleven coffee until sunrise. And it was summer, so sunrise came early. And I came back, and there's, early in the morning, tons of people outside that apartment. And I said, finally, maybe because I was so banged up and existentially, ontologically, really in shock. Like, that happened, that's literal, if that's real and that's literal, what else exists? What does this mean for the world? I mean, even, like, sitting in 7 Eleven and going, like, is this why we have war? Like, just a whole thing.

And I said, what's going on here? And she goes, oh, um, I forgot his name. I can't believe I forgot his name, but he had died. [00:13:00] And she goes, and everybody's coming to see his body, and I go, when did he die? And it was the night, look at how creepy, the, the night I started to get creeped out was the night he died. And I instantly just knew, again, not belief, but knowing, I said, whatever that thing was, it was in him, and it was looking for a new host. like a parasite does. I just knew it instinctively. And I, in that following day, ran into other neighbors and asked them, like, you know, and by the way, side note, I skipped over, of course I screamed at them, which is terrible because someone's dead, but I lost my mind.

I yelled at them. I said, a body is in this building. I called the city. I was like, this is like, you

Will & Karen: the body was just still there after a couple of days?

Rachel: three days.

Will & Karen: Did, did it not? Nobody took it? I mean, don't,

Rachel: No, no, no, because they were coming to visit with him. I mean, this is like, I don't know what was going on. A whole religious thing that I'm unaware of. But I talked to [00:14:00] other neighbors, like on my floor and other floors, they all had weird experiences.

Like, literally, in all different walks of life. And everybody was kind of gossiping about it. And nightmares, And this is like a real event. And that

Will & Karen: alcohol guy?

Rachel: Yeah, that sparked just the beginning of a real exploration and what I would call like a spiritual journey for me and collecting scavenger hunt clues, reading books, working with shamans, going to classes, you know, trying to get my, my, bearings.

And that really drove me. and continues to drive me and it was just the weirdest damn thing and I, it was not subtle. I wasn't asleep. Just things that, you know, you run through your little checklist of could I have or could it have been this or could have been that and it just was too, um, the data points synced up too much. The timing, the event, two doors down from me, other neighbors. [00:15:00] And so I decided there's something to this, there really is. And, you know, went to shaman school eventually and started seeing clients myself. I'd been reading tarot cards since I was nine years old and not at that time. Cause you know, I was way too, um, intellectual and

important for such things

Will & Karen: Of course.

Rachel: that, yeah, brought all that, all that got resurrected.

And. Really looked at a lot of the work I was doing in totem as my education as well, right? like so serving clients and things like that, but Really trying to you know, get to the bottom of something that there's no bottom to honestly Like the more you learn the less, you know, um,

Will & Karen: Yeah. We found that to be the case as well. The more we learn, the more we have to learn. The more we realize there's more to learn. We're never gonna learn it all. Yeah. Right.

Rachel: Now, you know why that list at the beginning when you introduced me is so goddamn long.

Will & Karen: But you know what, actually, if I had known that story before, I might have introduced you not as a skeptical shaman, but the Lara Croft of spiritualism, because puzzles and [00:16:00] scavenger hunts and, uh, that's pretty, that's pretty amazing. something like that for a lot of people might not be. jumpstart their exploration and might jumpstart their rush to a priest.

Yeah. All right. Back to religion. Yeah, exactly. So how did you manage to go in that direction versus the other?

Rachel: I don't really know You I will say that as a kid, I was adamant that spiritual things were real, and I was very interested in it, and I would ask, you know, priests and nuns a lot of questions, and they just used a lot of thought terminating cliches, right? And so nobody really answered my questions.

Nobody wanted to dig into it. It's one of the reasons I refuse to get confirmed. Because to me, that's, you know, you take a vow when you get confirmed to God. It's like you're getting married to God, and I was like, But nobody can answer my questions. I don't really know what's going on here. And so I think a part of me still didn't necessarily feel like that was going to be an authority of information that I could trust in isolation.

Mind you, I'm [00:17:00] friends with Catholics. I actually am friends with a Catholic exorcist and demonologist, um, who hates tarot, thinks all this is silly, but treats me with nothing but respect. By the way, he's very friendly.

Will & Karen: very interesting coffee conversations.

Rachel: they made a movie about him and his, his life stories. His name's Ralph Sarchi.

And there's a movie called deliver us from evil with, Erica Banna plays him

and

Will & Karen: I think I

Rachel: Olivia Munn is in it.

Will & Karen: sounds really familiar to

me.

Rachel: Yeah. And he's a character used to be a New York city police Sergeant. So he's, Got a bit of an edge to him. He's covered in tattoos. He yells. He's got like angry gym teacher energy, which I love I have a lot of affection for him and I'll join some of his Facebook lives and listen to his um, his you know Sort of messed up apocalyptic Bible study, right?

Because it's actually interesting and he's theologically literate in a way that People when I was a kid asking questions were not. Um, and so my thing is, you know, the reason I gravitated to shamanism, number one, I [00:18:00] am Native American. Not entirely, but I am. And number two is it's the most open minded field or like, methodology, I guess you could call it, where like we take information from wherever.

It, it, the source is irrelevant. So I'll learn things from a Catholic. I'll learn things from a Muslim gentleman. I'll learn something from an Orthodox Jew. I actually went to Spertus in Chicago to learn biblical Hebrew in part to dig into this stuff. So we are intensely heterodox with that. And there's no, um, elitism about where the information comes from.

And I just, for me, that's the system that works for me.

Will & Karen: but you do a lot of looking into the woo, for lack of a better term, because you don't tolerate the type of woo that is set up just to take somebody's money,

Rachel: I was blown away by this when I first started dipping my toe into teaching and things like that, where, you know, because I worked in corporate and I was like, I just [00:19:00] assumed that where I worked, everybody was like openly a demon and really like money motivated, not necessarily in a bad way, but that's what

Will & Karen: in some companies that is the case. I didn't mention the argument with my boss, right? I'm sorry. Did I say that out loud? Sorry, boss.

Rachel: you know, and I just thought, well, all these people doing Reiki, or who own Yoga Studios, they're gonna be the nice people. Like, they're gonna be open, and trustworthy, and sincere, and they're gonna have integrity because they have these incredible tools, and they're like me, and they're pursuing truth.

Massive, naive. Assumption. You know what they say about assumptions. It makes an ass out of you and me. and um, I was blown away by how just intense the grifter element is in this. And it, it shocked me because I was like, well, go be a grifter where grifts are. Why are you doing it here? Like, it seemed really profane to

me.

Will & Karen: it really started from, like, right back in the day when, hey, you've got a curse on you, let me, uh,

break an egg over your head,

Rachel: They still do that. A client told me she had [00:20:00] that experience last week, by the

way. Yeah,

Will & Karen: it. I mean, people get, they get afraid and they can't explain things, so they need a reason. Yeah. And a curse or a spell or an evil eye or something can be a reason.

And then people take advantage of that. It's the typical story of preying on the weak, right? The people that, to this day, my mother, about a year ago, got Why are you pointing at me? I'm pointing over your shoulder. Yes. She got totally conned. Someone called her and said that, her nephew was in jail and this is the only way to get them out and all that kind of stuff.

And she totally fell for it. She's in her eighties for God's sake. So tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah. so it's no different, right? It's, if you're, if you're seen as someone in need or weak, then, it's easy to take advantage, unfortunately.

Rachel: and they're getting incredibly sophisticated, so it's, it's moving outside of the neon sign, fortune teller, 900 number psychic kind of world, and I don't know how familiar you are with NXIVM. The cult from upstate New York, Keith Raniere serving 120 years [00:21:00] in jail. That was the one where the,

yeah,

Will & Karen: do next year, but, but people who might be listening may not. So

if you

Rachel: sure.

So, um, there's an excellent HBO docu series called The Vow, um, about NXIVM. And Keith Raniere was the leader of it. He's serving a lengthy sentence, thank goodness, for a very good reason. If you watch the documentary series, you don't, you'll think it's not long enough. And that wasn't super woo, it wasn't fringe, it was actually, Personal development using NLP to overcome limitations.

And it was one of their main sub companies was called executive success programs. So these, you know, I was in corporate, but we had executive coaching, um, team building 360 review processes. So this is not. fringe stuff and He didn't go for the weak and the vulnerable He went for the strong and the attractive because he knew that they would run his cult well, and they would be good recruiters so people like They're now my friends, but bonnie peace who was in star wars movies She played luke [00:22:00] skywalker's aunt beru and she's in the obi wan kenobi series He wanted her and her husband who directed what the bleep do we know the documentary

about

Will & Karen: love the documentary

by

Rachel: Thank you So i'm interviewing mark who's The creator of that movie next week on

my

Will & Karen: um, no jealous at all.

Rachel: he, well, he'll come on cause he'll talk to you. He just, I think he's in post production for a documentary called Empathy Not Included about narcissistic abuse and course of control in the world. So it's, it's gotten some polish to it now.

That old grift of like, I'm going to help you, you have blockages, they're using terms like spiritual technology, psychological technology, science, the science of joy, was a phrase that they trademarked in NXIVM. Um, so what I would say too, is you only need two people to be in a cult. You only need one unethical life coach and you, some numerologist, it's, it's all over the place.

And as the economy's contracted and inflation's gone up, a lot of people have wanted to get in the game.

Yeah,

Will & Karen: Well, that's not to say the church of will [00:23:00] is not a cult. I'm just saying there are two, there are two of us.

Rachel: love

it. Well, then how does someone figure their way out around that? I mean, there's so many, how can you tell that someone's taking you for a ride?

This is what inspired my podcast because I wanted to talk to ethical practitioners so people could hear what they sound like and different modalities, but also talk to people like Bonnie, Susan Jones, my friend, Abigail, who left Scientology when COVID hit being on zoom broke the spell for her.

Will & Karen: Interesting.

Rachel: Yeah, it just shook up the routine.

Um, cause I don't know, cults keep you incredibly busy. And sit distracted so you don't

Will & Karen: Leo Remini is making a career out of, uh, of, of assaulting Scientology. So I love what she's doing or what she was. I'm not sure she's still doing it

now,

Rachel: Well, L. Ron Hubbard, people don't realize this, studied the Lima under Aleister

Crowley.

Will & Karen: and L. Ron Hubbard is a science fiction writer [00:24:00] who was trying in his

books. Well, in his books, he talked about the best way to control people is to create a religion and he talks about it in his books.

Rachel: Well, and what sparked it is he wanted therapy. He had mental health issues when he was in the military and they denied him So he hated psychiatry. I mean, it's all you know, when you start to peel back the layers and look at this So I I talk about on my podcast I post about it at length on my sub stack This is my favorite thing to write about like I just watched breath of fire about Guru Jagat, a documentary series about more bullshit and yoga on HBO.

And I'm like furiously typing and yelling at the TV, but a couple just easy bullet points for people that I think are manageable. One is, um, no practitioner should ever just use a fake made up name like Keith Ranieri made everyone in the cult call him Vanguard. Now this is different from a nom de guerre or a pen name, like my friend Rebecca hosts the Hexen City podcast.

Her joke sort of name is Card [00:25:00] ZB, because she reads tarot cards. But everybody knows you can just look on her podcast information, her first name and her last name, right? So you can look her up, has she been convicted of fraud? Has she run MLMs before? Like, so it's a way to look into people. And then the other piece about the made up name, especially like in the Kundalini yoga community, like what this documentary breath of fire was about, um, is a way to subconsciously get people to elevate you to like an ascended being status.

So you're not Katie anymore. You're Guru Jagat. You're something other than, yeah, than this human, this fallible human named Katie, right, and it shifts neural pathways. So that's, that's one that I, I personally just keep an eye out for. And then another big one is they should never, ever, ever make you feel scared, anxious, or

disempowered.

Will & Karen: Yes.

Rachel: Right.

Will & Karen: Yes.

Rachel: You should never leave a session, whether it's life coaching, yoga, tarot card reading, anything, [00:26:00] feeling freaked out, feeling like you need to come back, you know, that sense of urgency, that latent pain. Um, you should work with people that leave you feeling better. And if the thing they do works, it should last for a while.

Um, I'm kind of famous. I don't let clients rebook tarot readings. If I see them book a month after I just read for them, I cancel it and I email them. It's too soon. You need, let this unfold. You're going to get all the same information and you're going to get confused. And usually when people do that, it's because they have anxiety.

And booking with a psychic is not a heuristic. You should be seeking to abate your anxiety. Because we're not mental health professionals. We're ill equipped to deal with that. Um, and another one is just the MLM structure, multi level

marketing.

Will & Karen: Been there, done that?

Rachel: to train trainers. You know, if you, if I sell you something, it's a thing, you buy it, the money you paid me for it is the thing you get. That's it. That's it. And there's no structure where I don't, people that do my coaching program or do, I, I [00:27:00] offer, it's a joke name, but also kind of not business of Wu mentoring. Whatever money you make, whatever business you start, that's yours. I have nothing to do with it. Go be happy and you don't have to give me credit or like say, Oh, I want to You know, the guru, Rachel, it's like, I have nothing to do with that.

That's your creation. And so, yeah, just someone who's just working with you and what they charge is just an even exchange for the, a very defined scope of services that they have expertise in. And one thing I would look at is there's a seaksafely. org great organization. With tons of resources, their relative died at that sweat lodge run by James Arthur Ray, the guy who did the secret, you know, was on Oprah.

Um, and so they started that foundation. And just check into that if you want more detail.

Yeah.

Will & Karen: And then what about finding a good practitioner? Is that a source or, like, what, how do you recommend if someone, they're looking for something, I want someone who's an energy healer, where do they go? SkepticMinimization. com. Well, [00:28:00] besides that, but

you know what I'm talking

Rachel: um, it's It's weird because I don't know that there are any black and white Guarantees right because you could get a referral from a friend that you think is really good at discerning and it's weird for you and also, by the way, just because someone's ethical doesn't mean they're a good fit for you.

Like I'm not everybody's cup of tea, right? So there's all of that. I would say go to Yelp, number one, and go to the filtered

reviews.

Will & Karen: Wait, Yelp has Tarot Reader Reviews or Reiki Practitioner

Rachel: I've been on there since 2011. Yeah.

Will & Karen: Oh my God.

Rachel: go on

Will & Karen: I've been doing it all

wrong.

Rachel: Look at the reviews that are visible. Go to filtered reviews because they, there's a whole rumor, and I have to say that for legal reasons, that you can spend advertising dollars with Yelp and they'll help you move unsavory reviews to a certain category.

Will & Karen: Oh, I might have heard the same rumor somewhere along the lines. I have not, but now I have

mm-hmm

Rachel: you know how, you know how destructive gossip can be, so I'm glad we're defining it that [00:29:00] way. Um, but also, I won't spend advertising money with them. And every time I say no to them, they filter my good reviews. So if you go to my filtered reviews for Totem Readings, it's 55 star

reviews.

Will & Karen: Wow.

Rachel: invisible, so you can do that.

The other thing would be, you know, talking to people, getting referrals. But also, um, I, one of the other reasons I wanted to do a podcast is it's long form. You guys know this, you're doing it. People sniff bullshit, right? It's not a 30 second Instagram. Three things you need to do to meet your totem animal.

You can really see the cracks in long form written and, and, um, Oral AU content, and I would listen to them, I would, you know, really get a feel for their stuff, and, and read their stuff, go on their website, look around, and just, if it's, like, if they're selling charmed jewelry, like magical amulets, probably a no.

You know what I mean?

Will & Karen: Or even if they're just on the podcast to promote their book, or if that's all they're talking about, that to me just is like a bit of a [00:30:00] red

Rachel: It's also a bad way to

sell things. So it's, they're totally shooting themselves in the foot. If you just having normal organic conversation and people like what you have to say, they're going to look into you and what you have to offer. The hard hard sell was over a long time ago, even in corporate, people do not do that in the business world.

Will & Karen: coming from the branded content world, production world. I could not agree more with, that. that shape has sailed. Unfortunately, are every, I just battled someone like literally two weeks ago who sounded like she really wanted to help. And it just was, she just was trying to recruit me into her MLM and it was really sad to

experience,

Rachel: one thing I would say, so you can, there's a great podcast called The Dream that digs into MLMs for like four seasons. And also, she has a little come to Jesus moment where she ends up getting a life coach who's sweet and sincere. And she has to kind of like, take the white pill instead of the black pill.

Which I thought was a cool like story arc. Um, but MLMs, you can, you should [00:31:00] never buy inventory. Number one, that's not normal business practice. If you have to buy inventory and put your own money up at the beginning, big red flag. And the second one is, um, it shouldn't require you to constantly produce content for social media or recruit friends and family.

The recruitment thing is, is a problem. That's how you know

Will & Karen: It is a problem. Yeah, that, that, that, and that's how I recognize it. Right. When she started talking about that and she wouldn't tell me who it was or what the company was, but just meet with my, coach, from the UK, just meet with him for, a half hour, sure. Give me, talk to me about what the opportunity is and then maybe I'll meet with your coach, but no, no, no, no, no, you gotta, you gotta commit to, oh Jesus, forget it,

Rachel: Have you seen the meme of Ben Affleck like this, smoking a cigarette in an alley? I have one that I send people who try that on me and it just, it says, hey, can we get on a quick call? And I send it back to them and that's my response to their nonsense. It's like, if you can't define your value proposition or tell me why I should spend my time with you, like what it is,

Will & Karen: in an

Rachel: I'm not [00:32:00] showing up to the call.

It's not right, right. right. A hundred percent. And Rachel, I need you to send me that meme because I need to start

Will & Karen: doing the it's a good I am a real meme person, so if you open that door,

you're actually very nice. You're not mean at all.

Rachel: When people get into the inner sanctum with me, I mainly my love language is memes at this

stage of my life.

Will & Karen: Gotcha. All right.

Will: We need to take a quick pause, but we'll be right back right after these messages.

Will: And now back to the skeptic metaphysicians.

Will & Karen: Well, I definitely want to talk about, the wood dragon. So 2024 is the year of the wood dragon, right?

Rachel: and we're heading into the wood snake now. 2025. Yes,

Will & Karen: Good God. Okay. Well, you said it's more of a cosmic rebirth than a zombie apocalypse. I want to [00:33:00] get dive into. Can you

Rachel: So I love feng

Will & Karen: for us?

Rachel: Well, there's a zombie component to

Will & Karen: intriguing.

Rachel: just not literal. Um, it might be as creepy though. A little bit. Yeah. So the wood dragon, your dragon years in feng shui in Chinese astrology are years of revolution. Um, and then, so when we were having the wood dragon year, I'm not a Western astrologer, but my friends are, and they were like, you understand this correlates because Pluto is moving into Aquarius at the exact same time.

The last time that happened, where the American and French revolutions. And I was like, so we were getting it from both hemispheres of the astrology brain, East and West. And you know, dragons are big on merit, meritocratic things on big change, not incremental change, like rapid. major transformation. And wood element is associated with trees or living things.

So a wood dragon here is symbolized by a redwood. It just grows and grows and grows and grows. It doesn't care who it offends. It's not trying to be [00:34:00] polite. And the minute We entered Wood Dragon is when Elon Musk to Bob Iger, you know in the audience says, why don't you go f yourself? And I was like, here we go Wood Dragon

Will & Karen: Strap on your

seatbelts.

Rachel: with all that wood growing growing growing like rapid growth.

There's change fatigue There's rudeness fatigue. There's political discourse fatigue, you know, like all the things that come along with it, right? So i'm exhausted. I think everybody's exhausted from the wood dragon. You're in my business and in my spiritual practice Change change growth growth growth personal growth at a certain point You're like, can I just watch real housewives and like drink?

I don't want to be a better person all the time. Like I don't want to work on that all the time So we're going to get a break as of january 30th. 2025 a little bit You Um, the Wood Snake is like a continuation, but an attenuated, milder version, where it's like implementing the revolutionary energy of 2024 in a more sustainable way.

Way and it's [00:35:00] just going to be about releasing old things. Uh, there's a Chinese astrology is this wild stuff around like flying stars of the year and it's it's a totally different kind of astrology But they have a lot to do with grief and not like in bad grief But like letting things go processing things releasing that which no longer serves us letting old systems die Maybe you got laid off, you know, and you have to grieve that cycle of your life Maybe you got divorced in the wood dragon year that got initiated now.

You're going to go through the divorce You hearings and settle your assets and so wood snake will be manageable in terms of how to visualize it it's like an olive tree or fig tree it's lower to the ground it produces fruit it's a little more chill yeah we don't have to move up so fast

Will & Karen: So then you're saying, no, no revolution's coming. No new American Revolution or Civil War or anything like that is

coming.

Rachel: i don't i think the revolution happened it just didn't look the way everyone thought it was going to look

Will & Karen: Ah mm

Rachel: and now it's like the letting you know the wheels came up [00:36:00] and now it's like Rebuilding. What are we gonna do next? How are we gonna live now? Um, so there's gonna be revolutionary things in a cool way.

Like, I really think, you know, in Wood Snake years, there's a focus on herbalism, holistic medicine, things like Ayurveda, Chinese medicine, acupuncture, regenerative agriculture, um, shifts in, in ways of living and health and sort of a renaissance of it. Us reconnecting a little bit to things that make sense that are more sustainable.

So I don't think so. I personally don't think so. Um, it doesn't mean it's not going to get weird. I think it's going to get weird. And in particular, I think the UAP phenomenon is really going to perforate the mainstream. I really do.

Will & Karen: It's already started. Yeah.

Rachel: Yes. And I think, you know, boomers are going to be talking about it.

I think it's going to be undeniable, but I don't, I just don't, maybe I'm missing the mark. I just don't see the. You know, the rights and the streets. We may have a little bit of it because it's [00:37:00] planet Earth. It's a big place with a lot of people on it. But, yeah.

Will & Karen: you know what, from your mouth to wherever universe is, yeah, because, uh, yeah, we've got a daughter and we need to make sure this planet is good enough for her to live through. So,

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I think the wood dragon, we're past the bulk of it being really intense.

You know? Yeah.

Will & Karen: Well, it's interesting because we've heard differently. We heard the 25 is supposed to be the year where who settled in because it's coming right. And then after that, things will settle in after that. But one more year is what they're saying.

Rachel: Yeah. What happens if everything just kind of works out?

Will & Karen: then, yay.

Rachel: Yeah. Well, and I think, though, it'll be psychologically and emotionally a challenging year for people who maybe haven't, um, like, challenged their own perception of reality. Right? So, in that way, internally, that's more a snake thing. It's a little more yin. And, you know, you [00:38:00] processing or integrating, what do aliens, if they're real, what does it mean for me?

Either as an atheist or a Catholic or a, you know, whatever.

Will & Karen: the show long enough, you know, I am ready to see the UFOs, the UAPs, but not the aliens. So we'll just keep your distance and I'm good. I mean, I do. I, I'm hoping that the UAP disclosure happens now. Like I'm ready for it. I.

Rachel: I think it's good for us, but I think it's gonna freak people out a little

bit.

Will & Karen: Oh, 100%. And I think that's what they're saying. That's why the government has been keeping it closed mouth, right? Cause it doesn't want to cause a panic, but I think we're ready. I do. I really think we're ready. Well, I feel like kind of what you're talking about, there's going to be, you know, more belief for openness for Ayurveda and things like that.

my concern is like the opposite. I feel like we're going to go. While, while people are, for lack of better words, you know, waking up to all of this more rapidly and more and more, I feel like there's going to be something trying to shut it down.

Rachel: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Will & Karen: are out there, you know? And

Rachel: Oh yeah, but [00:39:00] they, they're, whatever magic, you know, quote unquote, they have is fading rapidly. And I don't know if like, they're not making the proper sacrifices at Bohemian Grove or what's going on, but it doesn't have the, the oomph on it that it used to. So, I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic, but also as shamans, our tolerance for effery is a little higher than other people, and so I'm like, ah,

Will & Karen: Thank you for centering yourself, by the way, it keeps our family friendly, rating on Apple podcasts,

Rachel: so to me, you know, what's maybe like I'm very open to and I'm chill about may not be the same for other people, but I don't think we're going to see the, um, wood dragon has a lot to do with political revolution. Um, wood snake has a lot to do with like more social psychological reframings and we're now in age of Aquarius.

It's beautiful.

Will & Karen: That's what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping for beautiful because we could use a little bit of beautiful these And by the [00:40:00] way, I'm not known for my cockeyed

Rachel: optimism. Trust me.

So

Will & Karen: well good. Well, I gotta I gotta say Rachel it actually it's nice to hear some optimism from someone who calls herself a skeptical shaman it's a nice breath of fresh air, especially because you've been looking so much into the cults and the garbage inside the woo and all that kind of stuff and I like how you temper there's going to be a little bit of everything, you know, where it's, it's either one way or the other from a lot of our guests.

No, it's going to be great or it's going to be terrible. You know, there's no in between, but this is kind of like, okay, this is going to happen, but there'll be some of this. Well, I mean, I, and I think it's a lot has to do with the fact of, your own perspective, right? We create our own reality. So the perspective is going to, is going to guide you.

If you're feeling the world is the sky's falling, well, hell that sky is going to fall. But if you look at it from the fact that, well, now it's uncovering something else on the other side of the sky, maybe.

Rachel: And also if, if we all find out, let's just say that our government is allowing UAPs to abduct people or mutilate cattle, that'll be really upsetting to some people. [00:41:00] I'll just shrug my shoulders and go, yeah, I know.

Will & Karen: you're right. However, uh, Um, and along with all things, you hear that that whole abduction thing was actually a governmental coverup to try to make people scared of aliens.

And there's a faction that says aliens are here to help us.

Rachel: Oh, yeah.

Will & Karen: uh,

Rachel: And they're, they're doing the same thing that everything in religion and woo does, which it's one extreme or the other. They're all good. They're all bad. They're here to save us. They're here to doom us. And where shamans come from is it's, it's complicated. That's our constant status. My relationship with spirit is, It's complicated.

And I think there's all manner of flora and fauna, things that we don't perceive with the visible band of light that we have as humans are here. People with extrasensory perception pick up on some of it some of the time. And I don't, I'm never going to pretend to know what the hierarchies are, what their political affiliations are, who's good, who's bad.

I kind of like to deal with what's in front of me with that. Um, and [00:42:00] I'm personally very pumped to discover more.

Will & Karen: Yeah.

Will: We need to take a quick pause, but we'll be right back right after these messages.

Will: And now back to the show.

Will & Karen: I could talk to you for flipping ever I really could this has been fascinating

I do want to get back a little bit to what you do and how you help folks, because we've laid the groundwork now for all the things that you are, but you, Tarot, Feng ancient texts.

I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that you actually dabble into help folks. When you talk about the, can you talk to us about your totem

Rachel: yeah, absolutely. So I own a spiritual practice called Totem Readings. It's been around since 2010 and I had it part time off the side of my desk when I was in corporate. I do it full time now. Um, seeing COVID seemed like a good time to just jump in [00:43:00] to the maelstrom, a kite and a hurricane. And, you know, I make flower essences.

I have a garden in the backyard where I grow everything from seeds. I make all these myself. They're all organic. My husband's a chef. He would never tolerate, uh, chemicals or poisons out there. And in terms of the work I do, it's either one on one, kind of one off sessions. with clients or I work longer term with them.

And the new thing that's bubbled up because I've self published a number of decks and things like that. And I try and like demystify that stuff. People go, I can't do a podcast. I'm like, Oh my God, the technology, I'm such an idiot. If I can do it, you can do it. It's fine. And so I do the business of mentoring for people who either have a thing they already do, like they know they do it, or they're curious about it, and a lot of that's just showing them that they have a special skill that can be of value in the world, and they can get paid for it, and how to structure that.

And I don't make anybody psychic, I don't, I'm not, you know, [00:44:00] it's not Hogwarts. I can't do that. I'm not the Sorting Hat either, right? But I'm a little bit more of a Snape

figure,

Will & Karen: Right. You know, but all I did, Snape was a hero at the end, you know, so you can't

you

Rachel: Cranky people always surprise you in good

ways. It's the

Will & Karen: That is my new motto, Rachel. That is my new motto. Cranky people. Creepy. No. Creepy or cranky? Cranky. Oh.

Rachel: He was, he was always just cranky and

curmudgeon y.

Will & Karen: Yes.

Rachel: Yeah. I think he played that up. I think that was, you know,

Will & Karen: That was part of his mythos.

Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah. And Alan

Rickman was such an amazing

Will & Karen: Oh, absolutely. What a travesty. What a loss.

Rachel: But yeah, I, I love working with clients and the, the coaching and mentoring work. I do it All

one on one, so there's no group work, nothing's economy of scales, everything gets tailored immediately because I like making things hard on myself. Oof, my therapist will have to figure that one out. That's above our pay grade here. And yeah, I just, I [00:45:00] love showing people that, you know, spirituality and the rest of their life, they don't have to be disconnected. And if they want to explore this, they don't have to start wearing matching outfits, you know, or go vegan or any of these things that they're told that they have to do, because I don't care.

I don't care what your lifestyle is. I don't care what your religious beliefs are. If you want to get into this, I'll sherpa you up the side of the

mountain.

Will & Karen: Can you help those that don't have any powers whatsoever, but have a podcast that talks about powers all the time? Oh, we're on board, we're going to talk, you

Rachel: things like Meditation as silly as it sounds like shamanic journey meditation puts your brain into a theta wave state, which is really good for neural pathway redevelopment and neuroplasticity, you know, learning about micro dosing. You don't have to go to Mexico and take a big dose of ayahuasca to benefit.

It helps with memory retention, learning languages, learning music, all of these things.

Will & Karen: I've been actually very called to look into microdosing, but [00:46:00] I'm thinking more about microdosing. psilocybin is

what

Rachel: Yeah, that's what I

do. Yes.

Will & Karen: Oh, we're going to talk offline

Rachel: yes, and it is I have a ptsd diagnosis and you know, it was pretty, pretty rough there for a little while. I don't know if you guys know, but COVID wasn't in downtown Chicago. Wasn't that much fun if you have OCD and PTSD. anywhere. I think actually. And so between shamanic journeying, meditation and microdosing, I'm effectively asymptomatic and it's also whatever it's done to my neural pathways.

Now, when I feel myself getting hypervigilant or getting kind of tense in my body. I have now this weird objectivity where I go, Oh, this is acting up. So what I need to do today is, and that was like, not a thing. Pre microdosing. So it's a real medicine. It's been incredible for military veterans. And I'm really, really hoping that we can legalize some of this, at least for them initially.

Cause they really need it.

Will & Karen: and we've talked about that with, different guests that [00:47:00] we've had on the show and, and it's not just those folks. It's not just PTSD folks, but, but general people, it actually helps them to ground in a very profound way.

So

Rachel: And flower essences are on the other. They don't grow in the darkness. They're not mushrooms. They don't do that. They're much gentler, you know, but they effectively imprint plant medicine like herbalism onto you. And this is old. I have not innovated an ounce of this work. It's what they used to do in Europe.

5, 000 years ago. It's what Chinese medicine or Ayurveda is based in, just different plants. Because by the way, I studied European herbalism because I, I'm not that smart.

And hard words, well no, other languages, man. I was like, this is tough enough to memorize. I don't like ashwagandha, galangal. I'm not, let's just do mint,

thyme, willow bark. Yes, I'm. Here and so like there's a lot that can benefit everybody and you don't have to get weird You don't have to start wearing crystal jewelry or to your point like the feathers and the whole [00:48:00] affectation aesthetic You don't have to do that. You can be you and find What tools in this world work for you and leave the rest?

Will & Karen: I can't, I mean, I gotta jump in, man. You do, you do. I have too many questions. I know, and I do too. so we talked, and this, it's kind of a slightly different topic, before the interview started, we talked a little bit about testing that you do so that you got proof that helped you know things. And I want to know about the testing, if you would share a little bit of that with

us. again, not peer reviewed not Truly scientific. But right now I have two, you know, spiritual transformation coaching clients that are actually scientists, like hard science scientists. One is an archeologist out in the field. The other one is doing research on bird diseases, uh, specifically like chicken diseases, things like bird flu and Merrick's disease. So they're hyper rational people that are really into that, you know, can test the hypothesis, verify falsify world. So what we'll do is, Immerse them initially into shamanic journeying meditations, direct experiences. And they [00:49:00] start to collect ephemera. Take notes, share the notes with me. I explain, like, here's the context for that based on what Michael Harner had to say about it.

Rachel: Like, these subject matter experts, right? And then we keep going with practice sessions, meditations, and get, very quickly discover if they have a latent talent for something, and start to get them to do it. No amount of books or anything else is going to do this more for you than you practicing. And, you know, it's, it's a lot like the Silicon Valley, feel small, fail, early, fail, often like beta testing, getting in there, move fast and break things,

those phrases. And. Yes, and then

I set up practice sessions for them with either former coaching clients or current ones that are further ahead than them that are going to be kind, but also objective, that understand they're not there to kiss their, you know what, that, you know, they really want to get somewhere and things come through and that other client will go, you have no idea how accurate you are.

Let me break this down for you. Or the day after you did this practice session for me, this happened. And so that image you [00:50:00] got Showed up literally

for me in this space, and you'll kind of start to the goal of the way we do to start to pull it in and constrict it. After the wide net and try to drill in and get greater and greater levels of detail specificity And then if there's things like prophecy literally like channeling something like this is going to happen in the world going Let's see.

It's coming up. Let's take a look. Let's see what happens and look at it And sometimes it happens sometimes it's not and I always tell them the reason not could be manifold but one of them is free will you know, there's a myriad possible outcomes for anything and so You On any given day when I do tarot reading or anything else, I'm looking at probabilities In the data set i'm not Guaranteeing someone this is absolutely going to happen.

I explain that to them before I start the reading um, so that's sort of it's Way looser than science. I don't confuse the two but My clients that [00:51:00] are hardcore scientists others are fundraisers political parties lawyers I've had multiple surgeons and doctors in here and they'll get into things like remote viewing You Because it's really rigid and there's like a very uniform, repeatable, testable system.

I don't do remote viewing, but I set them up with people who do and they have fun with that.

Will & Karen: If you don't know what remote viewing is, go back and listen to the metaphysical moment that where I dive into remote view. That's true.

Rachel: it's super

Will & Karen: You know, it's so interesting using the science of this. We interviewed someone who is a channeler and she's working with, uh, is he a brain surgeon?

Yeah. Yeah. And he did scans of from No, he's a brain researcher. Brain

researcher.

Rachel: Oh, I would love to get scans of my brain for a number of reasons. If you guys have that information, please

share it.

Will & Karen: Happy to. Yeah. Yeah. He's incredible. He did scans of her like it. Oh wait, just talking and then sleeping and then channeling and then healing. He did a bunch of different ones and you could definitely see a change in her brain patterns

Rachel: And you can use a FLIR for [00:52:00] temperature, like infrared and body temperature changes with people who do Reiki, both the client and the practitioner. You can actually visually see a number

of these things.

Will & Karen: so things like that kind of show you this is real stuff. This is not just woo that you're taking on faith to your point. So I'm a reiki practitioner and I couldn't believe it at first, but until I felt it when I got, I mean, you go, you get, you get,

Rachel: Yeah.

Will & Karen: you're in a dark room and someone's doing crazy things over your head and you come out and you're like, I feel nothing different.

But then the minute you start channeling the energy, wow, it's a game changer. You actually physically feel it. It's, it's, it changes

Rachel: And the more often you do it, the more often you, one of the reasons I emphasize practice and like practical immersion so much is you'll start to learn a feeling that comes with it. Like a set of distinct physiological shifts, shifts in your visual field, your auditory field, like all of these things that tell [00:53:00] you, Oh, I'm doing the thing. And the more you do it, the more of a hand feel you get for it. And I think in some ways it's a perishable skill. And my husband's a chef. If he doesn't cut food for a while and do prep, his knife skills are not going to be as sharp. It's just the way it

is.

Will & Karen: Really interesting. Cause when I do. When I give Reiki to somebody, not, maybe six months ago or something like that, I went to a Reiki retreat again for the first time in maybe 20 years, and it just all came right back. it reminded me of how much I loved

Reiki. And yet I haven't done it since.

So it's a, it's a matter of just, Making a decision and moving forward with it, because it, it is really probably what, what I'm being called. And you're very strong. I mean, he's, it's like the, when we were dating, I, we were watching tv. I sitting on the couch one time and I had hurt my foot. And so he is like, oh, I rake your foot and I don't even know when the last time you had done it, but we're watching television.

And, and I, I had to tell him, I'm like, you're pushing down on my foot too hard. And he's like, look at me. And his

hand was

Rachel: I'm not touching

Will & Karen: know, not even close, but it, I could just feel that pressure, man wasn't touching at all. Yeah.

Rachel: I can't believe that you just shared that story. [00:54:00] My husband really hurt his ankle and we don't know how, but it was black and blue and swollen. Took him to the hospital, got scans, they said there was no break, but, and he's a chef. He has to be on his feet. So this was like a real issue being me, being the good wifi and I said, I'm gonna take you to somebody else to do this because I didn't feel like doing it.

I know God help me and I, but I also knew my friend who was a male practitioner, was, his energy work was very strong and he went one time. Gone, healed, massive change. This is like a very real thing. And that's another thing that, yeah, you can't do it the way like science does science. Like you can't peer review, publish that.

But to me,

that's evidence.

Will & Karen: And that's why I said yet. You can't measure it yet, but Heinlein or Arthur C. Clarke or forgot who says it, but magic to a primitive society, uh, it was just science to someone who was

more

Rachel: Mm hmm.

Will & Karen: Well, and that's why they were doing these brain scans with the channeling, because when she was sleeping, [00:55:00] it was one color, her brain scan was one color.

And then when she was just regular conversation, you could see the activity, but then she went, she was channeling, which is involves the same, you know, mouth. It was like she was sleeping. It was totally different. Yeah. It was wild. It was

Rachel: It

was a theta wave state. So lucid dreams and like a shamanic journey or channeling, they look the same in scans and it's wild.

Will & Karen: Oh, Rachel, you, the three of us have got a lot more to talk about.

Uh, unfortunately

we are running out of time as much as I hate to say that. But if someone wanted to reach out to you and connect and do a one on one or, or learn more about you, what's the best way for someone to reach out to you?

Rachel: TotemReadings. com. My email is on there or you could contact me through a submit form. I'm on Instagram and all social media, passive aggressively. Um, but I'm also on Substack and I spend a lot more time on Substack, uh, just cause I think it's meatier. It's, it's longer form. So it's the Totem Reading Substack.

Check it out. And yeah, that's about it.

Will & Karen: And [00:56:00] they can get those little bottles there too, huh?

Rachel: Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you go to my website, there's a link to my Etsy shop on there and it's super easy to get there. Just email me and we just do it directly.

Will & Karen: All right, we're going to add a direct link to your website on our show notes So if you need if you didn't have a pen just go to skepticmetaphysician. com go to her episode page You'll see the link laid in directly in the show notes a lot to unpack about rachel that we haven't even touched on so I encourage you to go visit her This has been so much fun that way way more fun than I ever imagined So thank you so much for

Rachel: Thank you. And you guys are really good at this and thank you for keeping this conversation going. Yeah.

Will & Karen: We love it. Thank you. We do love it. And when we meet people that have a like mind like you, where the conversation just flows away, it did. It just, we're going to be, we're going to be in touch. We're going to be, stay connected for a long time. So thanks so much for coming on the show.

Rachel: Thank you. [00:57:00]