Athen Chimenti

Will: [00:00:00] Karen, what's your sign? Cancer. Cancer? Well, everyone has a pretty good idea of what their horoscope is.

Karen: Yes. But honestly, I'm surprised you asked me. Well,

Will: I know it's, it's for effect, of course, and you know, and almost everyone knows just what their sun sign is too, right? Like the whole world pretty much knows who, what they are in terms of their sun sign.

Pretty much. Yeah. Now for the most part, it can often give a good thumbnail into someone's general personality, right? I think so. But what if I told you that modern day astrology may not. Be as accurate as a lot of people are touting.

Karen: See, I'm, I, you know, you know, me in astrology.

Will: In fact, what if I told you that most of Western tropical astrology doesn't even use the visible sky in their calculations?

Wow. What if there was a better way of using the stars to help explain you and guide your path forward without relying on the typical astrological system? You're asking me so [00:01:00] many questions. I know. Because I figure I'm just going to answer them all at one time, right? Yes. Well, this is what this episode is all about.

Get ready to learn everything you need to know about side real astrology. God, I hope I said that right. We'll find out.

Will: Okay, today I have a question for you. I'd love for you to send me an email at skepticmetaphysician at gmail. com or go to skepticmetaphysician. com, send us a message, voicemail, email from the site, [00:02:00] whatever you prefer. But the question is regarding duality. What are your thoughts on that? I'm reading this book that is trying to explain these kinds of duality questions to the Eastern world. And in one chapter, he writes this, he says, In the beginning of the Bible, God speaks of a tree of wisdom with two kinds of fruits, which he tells Adam not to eat. That means don't reach for the good fruit.

He doesn't say don't eat the evil fruit. Now on the moment that Adam wants what's good, automatically he doesn't want what's bad. Once you take one side, the other side follows, apparently. So, God said, don't reach for what's good. There's no evil or good in you. Stay away from those dualities. But if you begin to argue that, no, no, this is good, why can't I taste it?

Then, even as you do it, You'll be classifying something else as bad when there's one quality. The opposite, see, is always there. God [00:03:00] asks Adam to remain above this good and bad, pleasure and pain, all of those dualities. But Adam saw only the good, and he wanted to taste its fruit, so its counterpart, evil, arose.

That's what the book says. So here's the question I have for you. Is that your thought process? Is there no good or evil unless you choose one or the other? I mean, what I'm getting from that passage basically, and from quite a bit of the Bhagavad Gita, is the advice to be detached from the outcome of good or evil.

Basically, it's saying that if you don't reach for good, then evil can't exist because the minute you reach for good, it immediately and automatically creates its equal.

I don't know how I feel about that. And because I'm conflicted about it, I need to ask you what your thoughts are. This show has always been about learning, not us teaching you, but us all learning together. And that's where this [00:04:00] question comes from. Because in this case, I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it.

And I'd really, really appreciate your thoughts on this passage.

Have we been going about this all wrong? Should we not see good or evil at all, but rather just be? Amen. Everyone from the day we were born is talking to us about how important it is to be a good person. And then the act of telling our kids to be good people, is that then automatically creating bad people?

Is there such a thing as good people and bad people? Sure, there's people who do good and people who do things that are not really that good for others, but they might do good for themselves, right? So, I think in most classic fiction you see the evil person for the most part doing what they think is good for them.

It doesn't matter if it's good for others or not. But I don't... I mean, I think there's very few times when you see people doing bad things just for the sake of doing bad things. Right? So yeah, you see, that's why I'm conflicted. When it comes to duality, [00:05:00] are we supposed to be completely detached from good or evil and just be?

Like, are we doing this all wrong? By choosing to be good, do we create, then, bad? Should we just... Not vote one way or the other. Anyway, I would really love to hear your thoughts. Skeptic, but a physician. com or skeptic metaphysician and gmail. com. That's enough of my blathering. It's done with the show.

Hey, I'm Will. And I'm Karen. And today we have the privilege to share space with Athen Chimenti, an astrologer, educator, and leading expert in the field of true side reel astrology. And he's gonna, uh, hopefully correct me on that pronunciation.

I'm just assuming it's called, it's side reel astrology, but we'll, we'll get into that in a second. Now, Athen has dedicated his life to spreading the word about true sidereal astrology and its power in bringing clarity and direction to people's lives. With over 5, 000 [00:06:00] individuals from around the world benefiting from his readings, Athen has proven his expertise in helping others gain a deeper understanding of themselves, And their journey is unique approach using the actual constellations in the sky instead of the commonly used tropical astrology system sets him apart as a true pioneer in his field.

And his passion for teaching has also led him to train more than 100 aspiring astrologers, guiding them towards becoming professionals in the field themselves in a world filled with uncertainty. Athen's teachings provide a much needed sense of clarity and direction. He understands the importance of aligning oneself with the natural movements of the sky and the impact these celestial energies can have on our lives.

Whether you're new to astrology or have been studying it for years, his insights are going to undoubtedly provide you with a fresh perspective. So get ready to delve into the fascinating realm of true side real astrology. Welcome to the show, Athen.

Athen: Hey guys. Thanks so much for having me on. It's a pleasure.

Will: The pleasure is ours, and first and foremost, I've got to ask, [00:07:00] how much did I butcher the name of that astrology? Is it sidereal astrology? Did I say it correctly?

Athen: Well, I actually hear it pronounced a bunch of different ways. I actually don't know what the proper way is. I say sidereal. Uh, that's the way I say it, but, uh, SideReel works and I hear plenty use it that way as well. Yeah. Yeah. I was

Will: not close at all. Oh, SideReel

Karen: sounds so much better.

Will: Yeah, it does. It does.

Oh my gosh. I'm not, I'm not embarrassed at all. It wouldn't be so bad if I hadn't said it like 12 times in an introduction.

Well, let's get right to the very beginning of the whole thing, because. Side real astrology is different than regular astrology. How, how is it different? how's it beneficial to use it more so than the current method of using astrology?

Athen: Right. So, so this really comes down to whether you're from the West or the East. So in the West, our typical astrology, is essentially what's called tropical astrology, and this is where they use the [00:08:00] seasons essentially for determining the signs. And that's why every spring equinox it starts Aries, and it stays that way consistently every year, you know, doesn't change so much.

So the sidereal system is different in that tropical doesn't actually use the visible sky. Okay, so it did about 2, 000 years ago and at that time the seasons matched up with the sky So when it was the spring equinox, it was zero degrees Aries, right? And so that was where you would go and and if someone was born During the spring equinox, you would go up, you'd see the sun literally at the beginning of Aries.

But we have this thing with the Earth called precession, which is a very slow wobble of the Earth, at least that's what's proposed by modern scientists, that actually causes the sun to not come back to the same exact spot every year. Now this is very, very subtle, and it only changes about [00:09:00] one degree every 72 years.

One degree every 72 years. There's 360 degrees in in a circle. So in the sky in the zodiac that we use But it's been 2, 000 years So, you know since it was the sky with with the seasons and so here we are Almost and in some cases two signs away from where things are visibly and the seasons and so in the regular astrology in the West or tropical astrology the season based astrology They might say that you're a Sun in Aries, but you're actually a Sun in Pisces in Sidereal or in the sky.

And if you were to look up at the sky when someone was born here in the West, you would literally see the Sun in Pisces. So most people aren't aware of this. And I think in the West, we would just naturally assume that, astrology says you're a Sun in Aries, then that's where the Sun was when you were born.

Karen: So is your sign what you are when you were born? Is that?

Athen: Does that stay that way? It does. So, whatever the [00:10:00] snapshot was of this guy when you were born, that definitely stays that way.

Karen: but, um,

Athen: Yeah. No, because you'll always be your birth chart, But someone else born at the same time you were born, 72 years later will be one degree different than your son's sign.

So your birth chart applies to you as a person for your whole life. the snapshot when you were born. but of course, if you're comparing that snapshot with another snapshot, 72 years later, that would be a one degree difference.

Will: Okay. So then the modern astrology or the tropical astrology, the astrology that we're using right now to tell our.

whether or not to go outside the house in a given day, the horoscope, right? right now it's saying that I am a Gemini sun sign. However, with sidereal astrology, it turns out, you ready for this, Karen? Hmm. Because I pulled my chart. Oh boy. I have sun in Virgo. No, no, no. I have sun in Taurus. Sorry. I'm incorrect.

I'm sun in Taurus. Athen, it hasn't been 72 years since I was born. [00:11:00] So how is, how could it be so different from, are you saying that a tropical astrology took my sign to be, sun sign to be Gemini 2000 years ago and it just hasn't kept up with it as we've gone?

Athen: No, uh, they're very aware, tropical astrologers are very aware that they're using a season based system. it's just that they prefer to use the seasons. Now, there's all kinds of conspiracies or theories or perspectives as to why we still use, uh, tropical. But, um, no, tropical astrologers are very that your sun sign is not where the sun actually was when you were born.

And so, you know, if you were born 2000 ago, you would be a sun in Gemini at the, if you were born on that day. You know, the Gregorian calendar day at that time, but, yeah, now the sun will continue to be there for hundreds of years, you know, even possibly

Athen: thousands, it's just that most would think that that's where it is in the sky, but it isn't, it isn't really, And I'm not saying that tropical isn't accurate, [00:12:00] because again, it's basically saying that you were born during the season of Gemini, we, it goes. Without saying that we would also believe that if you're born during a certain time of the year, you're gonna exhibit certain qualities, So you're born during the season of Gemini, which basically just means that it's like the third phase Let's say after the spring equinox or we could say, you know approaching the summertime, And so you're gonna exhibit Those qualities. So it's basically like taking the zodiac wheel, which we might consider the wheel of life And that wheel of life can be seen through anything you know, you can extrapolate goals and even the whole life in and of itself that Maybe when you're you know, if you do the math or whatever Maybe when you're like 15 you exhibit Gemini qualities of learning and studying a whole lot at that phase of the life cycle so you can use the zodiac wheel for any cycle.

And so in this case, they've extrapolated the zodiac and placed it over the seasons. And now when you're born during that time of the season, it shows that you'll exhibit those [00:13:00] qualities in this case, Gemini. Of that season of that time of the season, so it does make sense that it's still very accurate.

but I do find that using the visible sky was what astrology was intended for and to me is the most fundamental chart to use. we do have derivative charts with astrology, like I do consider tropical a derivative because it's derived from the sky. It's not the sky because astrology is supposed to be from the sky.

So it's derived from the sky, but that doesn't make it less accurate. It's just that you're looking at it through a certain lens. And in this case, you're looking at the individual from the more seasonal lens or that you could say the third dimensional lens, if you believe in this sort of. Wheel of karma, uh, or the more third dimensional wheel, uh, that the Hindus explain that we're living in or the Maya, if you will.

So I do think tropical is very good at describing the more physical, tangible aspects of the self like that, but I do prefer to use that fundamental. All

Will: right. So I can neither confirm nor deny that I [00:14:00] may be currently experiencing an identity crisis. Because my whole life, I was assured that I was a Gemini, and it made sense, okay, I'm this way, this is what I've done, this is how I react, whatever, it makes sense.

But now, to think that I'm a Taurus, it just doesn't seem to fit, is it? Oh, it does. Does

Athen: it, though?

Karen: You're so stubborn. Really? Bullheaded. In the best way, though. I mean. But now I'm so confused. I mean, astrology for me has always been confusing anyways, but there's like the sun sign and the moon sign and the tropical and sidereal.

And I just thought I was a cancer and I liked my home to be in order. Now I have no idea

Will: what's going on. Well, are you ready to learn what your sidereal sun sign actually is? I mean, I guess so. Drum roll. You ready? Oh boy. You, my dear, are a Gemini.

Now, how does it feel now to be a Gemini, baby?[00:15:00]

All right, so it's interesting because you have, you go through life with one particular thought in mind and now all of a sudden things are, have upended. So this is, this is a fascinating topic that we were diving into. now what does this mean when it comes to, the impacts on society as a whole, do you see this being adopted wholeheartedly moving forward?

I mean, you may, I know you mentioned the conspiracy theories earlier on and things like that, but is this, is there a reason why we're not using

Athen: sidereal?

Yeah, so, so that in that 2000 year time, so we're talking around

 200 AD, uh, idea, which was to really simplify things because, you know, we have this procession, which is, it's really complicated, like every 72 years. And then what about in between? And so you're having to constantly make these extra calculations. Plus, not to mention that the form of astrology I use, or the form of sidereal that I use, uses the actual size of the constellations.

So that adds a whole other level of complexity, because in most astrology systems, they're using an even [00:16:00] 30 degrees. That's why it's every month, kind of around that 20th, 21st time period, it changes the sign. So the truth is, is that, for example, Taurus is a very large constellation, and Gemini is a much smaller constellation.

So the constellations aren't. 30 degrees in the sky, not evenly. so that's what I call true sidereal. but yeah, 2, 000 years ago, you know, Ptolemy simplified the system and said, hey, instead of making all these extra calculations, let's just keep it really simple and just set it to the seasons.

Set it, to the Gregorian calendar. Basically, so, you know, we're talking 200 AD, which is after the Gregorian calendar. It's during the Roman Empire era So it made a lot of sense at the time. The issue is is we went into the Dark Ages and it in astrology to stop being practiced And then it was seemingly kept by I would say the elites or the church, And in the sort of, you know, really upper class there and then it didn't start to really get practiced again until about the renaissance and [00:17:00] so there's a huge time gap between when Ptolemy.

made this change, then the church and the, you know, more powerful kept this system, of tropical. And then when it started to become used again, that's what they used. It's almost like a gap in history, and we just started using where we left off. But the problem is, is where we left off was, Thousand years, you know, at that time for the, for the Renaissance compared to when Ptolemy started this.

So, we just kept using it. It's again, still accurate, but I think a big part of it is the fact that it became sort of institutionalized.

Athen: Just by Ptolemy and that institution never really got questioned. We never really started to look at the sky because another big thing is, is that we were stuck in cities and we didn't really go out and look at this.

 I like we did for 2000, but even more 4, years ago. When we first started using astrology by looking into the sky and [00:18:00] emotions, whatever, the periodicals, the mainstream, you know, says it and we kind of go with it, but recently we've had technology, particularly this, these cell phones, which is the ability, and this is when it really struck me.

To hold up this app like a planetarium and see exactly where everything is in the sky. I don't know if you guys have used that, but I was just looking at a full moon one day and you know, it's supposed to be funny enough. It was supposed to be in Gemini and I looked at it and sure enough, it was in Taurus.

And so that was a big paradigm shift for me when I actually saw it visibly. And I always knew, and that's the thing, the tropical astrologers do know. Um, it's not the sky, but it becomes something else entirely when it becomes experienced that, you know, you see it for where it actually is, you know, and I think that's what speaks to the, the more true sidereal method.

Will: Now, have you gotten any pushback from the traditionalists on this saying, no, no, that's not true or [00:19:00] anything like that? Or, have you, for the most part. Just gotten long, like everyone else.

Athen: Well, yeah, I try, I try to do my best. Um, but no, I mean, you know, practically all the time. Um, it's not like I get like, you know, hate emails or anything like that.

It was definitely much stronger at first when I first started, you know, it kind of got to that, that, that, that kind of, you know, people were emailing me and stuff, but no, it's nothing like that. I think it's, I think it's understood now. Um, I think it's much more respected. Now, this, uh, you know, this sidereal, true sidereal, plus what I, what I didn't mention is, in the East, they are using their form of sidereal.

So this is Hindu astrology or Vedic astrology, and that is the traditional sidereal. So like I mentioned, when Ptolemy started to. Fixed the chart around the seasons with tropical, the Hindus, you know, Vedic astrologers kept using sidereal and they were okay with making those adaptations for procession and they [00:20:00] continue to do that and they still do that today. To this day they still use their form of sidereal and I say their form because they are using the even 30 degrees So it's not the actual sizes like true sidereal But it's incredibly accurate because they have a whole system around it, which means they're not only using the signs They're also using smaller divisions of the signs which are called nakshatras or padas which break down the signs into smaller parts and if you read those interpretations You find that those match very well with the actual sky because these are, these are things that they've, they've preserved their astrology much, much better than the West.

And so they have these, you know, interpretations that go back tens of thousands of years in many cases. And it, you can see that these nakshatras do match up with the sky very well, um, in their system, for example. So, you know, say Daryl, if we look at the world as a whole. we might say that tropical and sidereal are evenly practiced and evenly used.

It's just in the [00:21:00] West, we're not aware that in India, they're all, for the most part, using sidereal, right? And even Chinese astrology uses sidereal as well. That's not so practiced much anymore, but

Karen: So then if someone went out here and just got their chart done, just regular, I guess, tropical chart done.

Would it be completely inaccurate or would it be somewhat accurate? What are your thoughts

Athen: on that? still accurate at describing it from a certain lens. So Tropical does a really good job of describing the more physical personality. So maybe where, you know, I don't know, maybe with Will, like where you're seeing more of the Gemini qualities, I mean, you're doing a podcast, You know, obviously communicating a lot, you seem very interested in information. Um, what I think Truce is showing is a more kind of fundamental self, kind of maybe, I don't want to say spiritual self, but kind of the more substratum or the base layer of that. So while

Athen: the physical self is having these experiences of [00:22:00] Gemini and learning that will views life through the lens of self reliance and resourcefulness.

And this self reliance and resourcefulness serves as the bedrock for maybe some of these other derivatives, parts, you know, the more physical self to go out and explore and learn and do those kinds of Gemini things. So I think both are accurate. Um, I just prefer the true sidereal because I've. Find that that's more of the base layer and more of the fundamental self, especially because I, you know, most of those that come from my readings and stuff for more into like personal growth and development, if it's for more physical predictions, or maybe it's for the horoscopes, like in the newspapers and stuff.

Tropical still does a great job for that, you know, I'm not downplaying it just because it's in the horoscopes or in the newspapers. It does a really good job of showing the more physical, uh, reality of things, you know. but for personal growth, I believe, and spiritual development, this is where I like to use the true Seydiril because I do find it forms that more fundamental layer of the individual.

Will: So then it would be safe to say that [00:23:00] I am a Geminish

Toran. Or am I a Torish Gemini? Now, that brings up a...

Athen: You're a Tauranite. Right, and that brings up another point, which is that like you guys were saying, they, there's more than just the sun sign. And so there's also your Venus sign and your Mercury sign. And I bring up Venus and Mercury for a reason because if we do look up at the sky, Mercury and Venus are always next to the sun, which means that there's actually a very

Athen: good That One of those two planets is in your tropical sign Right, because if you're actually in Taurus, there's a very high probability That your Mercury or your Venus not to mention any of the other planets are in Gemini, but especially the Mercury in Venus because Mercury will always be within 30 degrees Usually of the sun and then Venus about 45 We could you could bring that out to 45 for Mercury and 60 for Venus, but it's usually within that [00:24:00] window So the neighboring sign And so it's very likely that you have maybe your Mercury in Gemini and maybe you know what we're seeing with the Gemini is the way you communicate and share information, which is Mercury.

Or maybe it's the Venus, which is how you connect with others and share with others would be in a mercurial way. So that I see it a lot with clients. You know, they, they, uh, they identify with something and I say, does it sound more like a Mercury? And they're like, wow, yeah, it actually does. Or does it sound like more like your Venus?

Because that's, you know, the plan is the side of yourself and you know, it's not just the sun sign. You have these other parts of yourself that are in different constellations.

Will: Well, yes, to confirm my mercury is indeed in Gemini and my Venus is in cancer, so that makes perfect sense.

But now I want to talk about the, astrological science, because there's a lot of things that, if indeed these are off by a degree every 72 years, then it doesn't really explain the 12 astrological signs. Is there something we're missing here?

Athen: so again, there's, you know, all mainstream astrology in [00:25:00] India, in the West, East and West is all 30 degrees.

And so now if we go back further than Ptolemy, so if we go back to when astrology started to become. Well, the way that we know it today, we're looking at the sort of Babylonian and pre Babylonian time period. So, we're looking at about 2000 AD and prior to that. That's when we noticed, remnances of the Zodiac, Now, the Zodiac goes back further, but this is when we started to notice these remnances, stone carvings, things of this nature, where all of the, uh, signs were given in even 30 degrees. But, what these carvings were, what we... What we see from them is that they were meant to be used as calendars. this is when we started to invent calendars and clocks.

It was during this Babylonian, pre Babylonian time period. And of course we would use astrology for this. I mean, it is the only clock that is in nature. [00:26:00] You know, the movement of the planets. So, they made them into 30 degrees, and I think for a very good reason, because... How are you going to have a calendar or a clock that one o'clock is larger than two o'clock?

So obviously you're going to have an even division. Along with that, that there's twelve, Now there is actually twelve parts of the sky in terms of the constellations. Fucus.

this is the same part of the sky as Scorpio. So, for those of you familiar with Scorpio, it's this very, very similar energy. So, it's about depth, it's about transformation, it's about healing, all that deeper energy of Scorpio. However, it shares the same part of the sky as Scorpio, so it's still the eighth part of the sky.

And so it makes total sense why they would just lump it in with Scorpio. Because the eighth part of the sky [00:27:00] deals with all this stuff. Transformation and healing and depth and all this. Okay. But if you want to use it, it does give us a lot of extra insight. Because it is an actual constellation and by definition it is an actual zodiac sign.

Because by definition zodiac means a constellation that passes through the ecliptic. In other words, the sun and the planets pass through it. Aries now is above the ecliptic, but it when it was first created it was part of the ecliptic and that speaks to those of you who are Aries being very independent and you know and stuff Anyways, but by definition a zodiac sign is a constellation that passes through the ecliptic which a fucus does Okay, so so a fucus is a person the constellation is a person wielding a serpent, holding a serpent, and it's standing on top of Scorpio, and a leg passes through the ecliptic.

Now what's very interesting about this is that where the leg stands on top of Scorpio is the center of the galaxy, the galactic center. [00:28:00] And this is a very energetic part of the sky, and for those of you who've seen it in the sky you can see how energetic it is. it's basically all the concentration of light and energy and stars that are between us in the, in the middle of the Milky Way, um, you know, between us in the middle, which is just a ton of stars and a ton of energy.

And so when planets pass through there, astrologically, we find a lot of transformation, a lot of this sort of death and rebirth theme, again, very symbolic of Scorpio, but a Fucus coming after Scorpio. Scorpio is taking the deeper energy of Scorpio and what we might say working with it, doing something with it.

The archetype of a Fucus is the healer, the serpent bearer. But if you look at the serpents in ancient, you know, mythology or just in, you know, ancient symbolism. The serpent has always been associated with healing. And so it's this symbol of wielding the healing [00:29:00] energies, wielding the deeper energies, the serpent, the parts of ourselves that are more, instinctual, the parts of ourselves that are the more animalistic, the parts of ourselves that as humans, we don't like, we shun away.

We, we push away, we exile. And if we go to more modern day psychology, like Jungian psychology for example, we find that this serpent really represents the shadow. It's the part of the self that we've pushed away, exiled,

Athen: we don't want to be that, we don't value that, it's not positive, whatever, we push it to the unconscious.

The ego will not be this. If the ego is not something, then all this stuff gets subjugated to the unconscious because the truth is, is where the whole spectrum of life and that energy has to go somewhere. So this is the shadow work. I would say it's probably the best way of thinking about a fucus. It's being aware of the deeper energy, which Scorpio helps us do, but it takes us one step further and helps us actually [00:30:00] embrace and accept, wield.

Those serpentine, those instinctual, those exiled parts of ourselves. So this is where we really get into the shadow work with the chart, where a fucus is in your chart represents where you can do healing, where this transformation can occur, where you can help others heal as well. So it's a very powerful thing that unfortunately has been removed.

You know, uh, from mainstream astrology on both sides, East and the West that I think is provides a lot of value, especially again, for those into personal development and growth.

Will: Now I'm looking at both Karen and my chart and nowhere on there. Do I see anything that says a Fucus? Is it something that you can't be a Fucus?

You can't be like a Gemini. I'm a, I'm a, I'm an a Fucus,

Athen: Well, you can not have any planets there. someone with like their son in a fucus is going to exhibit very strong, you know, a fucus qualities, someone with their moon, their personal plants can exhibit a lot of those qualities.

but a fucus has to be somewhere [00:31:00] in the chart itself. And so if you're looking at the chart now, you can identify it as the black, uh, smaller constellation. So you'll see all the constellations on the outer ring. A Fucus is a smaller black one comes right after Scorpio and whatever house that's in. You probably don't have any plants there because it's small and it's, you know, it's just less probability is all, it'll be in a house.

And so if you, if you let me know what house that is, I could tell you where that healing would take place.

Wow. This

Karen: is so complicated. I'm like science and now there's houses. Holy

Athen: moly. Yeah. three components of astrology, houses, planets, science. yeah, what I tell my students is like, you don't have to incorporate all of this. you can just look at the signs. You can just look at the houses. You can just look at your sun sign. You can just look at your moon sign.

We're already terribly complex creatures. There's no other human that's going to be able to go in and fully analyze somebody or fully [00:32:00] understand somebody or whatever. So I like to think of it as more inclusive, like we don't have to read all the houses and everything in order to get value from it.

But we can read a little bit and get value and that's it. And it's just a matter of how much you want to read. So, it is overwhelming though. You're right. There's a lot to it. but you know, also remember that if you only want to look at your son and just get the value from that, it can be tremendously helpful to do so.

Karen: Is that what our son, like when someone just, Joe Schmo said, I hate what's your sign and like I would say cancer, is that the sun sign or the moon

Athen: sign? Yeah. It's typically the sun sign. Okay. I

Karen: see. I thought it was the moon sign.

Athen: Wow. Now in the east, no, but in the east, it is the moon sign. So if we were in India, it would be the moon sign.

So in the east, they favor more of the moon energy. this is kind of the way we, we have our societies. The west generally favors more yang energy. So more like career and achievement and more in the outer world, which is the sun in the chart, right? It's the energy, it's the [00:33:00] masculine, the self expression.

The outer world, whereas the moon is yin energy, which is more spiritual, more about attunement, more feeling, more connected, more present, and more about the past and roots and things like this. So they're both equally important and it should be that you ask someone what their sign is and it should be both in my opinion.

but in the West, yeah, it's, it's, they mean you're, they mean your sun sign.

Will: All right. So looking at my chart now, it looks like the black area is in, I assume it's with sixth house. in between the M and the arrow. Does that help

Athen: any? Yeah, that's, that's the sign.

Yeah. That's the sign. That's a few. Cause it looks like a U so that's in the sixth house for you. It is. so that's usually that's the house of work. So that's actually suggesting that what you're doing with your work and what you're doing, I would say with this podcast is. You're a healer. Modern day healer, but you're a healer.

Wow. Through your work.

Will: Never been accused of being that before. That's pretty cool. You do all

Athen: fancy. Like, look at me. [00:34:00]

Will: Yeah. Hey, Karen, I'm a healer. That's pretty awesome. All right. So, the fact that there's a 13th, line, that's, pretty amazing, but I really want to talk about 2024 because I know Karen has been chomping at the bit.

She knows this is, is, this is coming in from the minute we talked about it before we started recording. She has been like poking me. Come on, let's get to it. So, um, let's not waste any more time. what are we in store for next

Athen: year? Yeah, so there is, from the true sidereal perspective, there is, it is actually a really big year.

Two main things. So, we have, we have Pluto, which is about, it's like that of Fucus energy. It's about transformation. It's Scorpio energy. And it's changing sign. And this is very rare because Pluto only changes sign like once every 20 years, roughly. if you add it all up, basically Pluto wasn't in this part of the sky since the birth of the United States.

So the late 1700s, now the part of the sky that it's in is very interesting [00:35:00] because it's going into Capricorn and Capricorn deals with the systems and structures of society, whether it's the politics, the government, whether it's the economics. What have you? And if you look back at the late 1700s, it wasn't just the U.

S., but the entire world really went through a transformation of their political systems. We basically went from monarchy to more republic and democratic forms of government. So it started with the U. S., but it quickly spread to Europe and even in the East. There was a lot of changes there, we're obviously not going to repeat.

History doesn't repeat. There's been a lot of growth and evolution. And one thing about astrology is that it's more like a spiral. It's not like, you know, we were, we were shown in school like this two dimensional solar system and it's flat. And, you know, everything is just orbiting.

 In the same spot around and around, but if you look at the actual solar system, at least what we think it [00:36:00] looks like is that you have the sun, which is like flying through space and then the planets are following it. And as the sun's moving, because the sun's going around the center of the galaxy, and so as the sun's moving, the planets are, spiraling.

they're orbiting, but the sun's moving, so it's spiraling. And so this is symbolic for that in the astrology. It's not like when we have a full cycle like this, like what's called the Pluto Return here in this case. We don't come back to the same spot, we're evolving. And so, even though it may sound like, oh man, like.

Think of all the crazy stuff that happened in the late 1700s in order to have these changes in society. it's, you know, I don't believe it's going to be like that. That was a different time period. But it's going to share that fundamental, which is of changes to the old and outworn systems. Um, I think we would all agree that republics and democracies are better.

Then the feudalistic monarchies that we had, even the monarchies in existence still today. still [00:37:00] using much more democratic and republic, law based systems. So we'll see a nice evolution of that. To what extent, this is where we can all make our own predictions, but I am firmly convinced that over the next 10 to 20 years, we're going to see similar differences.

I think we'll look back and see how much our political and even economic systems have changed during this 20 year period than prior. And I think it's obviously for the best, and it's going to lead to more freedom and, you know, positivity in the long run. But, of course, that all comes to us as humans in terms of how we make these transformations and changes.

So because the U. S. was born during this time, the late 1700s, this means it's the Pluto return for the United States. And so it means Pluto's come back, it's a return. So if you look at the transit, it comes back to where it was in the natal chart, in that, in that snapshot we were talking about earlier. So that's, you know, these returns are very significant because they mean new beginnings in the area.

So I think, yes, [00:38:00] particularly in the States, we'll see. You know, a lot of these transformations and changes, but it is global because it's Capricorn as we saw coming out of the, American revolution.

Will: Gotcha. So basically you're saying that, uh, leaving the U S is going to save you. Yeah.

Athen: No, I mean, we got to go through it.

Yeah. We all got to grow collectively as well,

Will: man. Okay. so it, I mean that, that tracks right, Karen? We've heard a lot of people come on the show and talk to us about the fact that a lot of our institutions have to change and have to, and in fact, it's one person predicted, I think now within this panel, Holy crap.

Next year, she predicted that, everything's going to just, everything is going to collapse, right? Government, education, financial, everything's going to collapse and it will be rebuilt in a better form, which is a little scary. It's a

Athen: little scary. Yeah. But just, just so you know, from the astrological standpoint.

It is usually the most catalytic at first, but it doesn't mean it's all going to happen in one year or even in the first five years or whatever. The reason [00:39:00] that Capricorn is the size that it is, is that it takes that amount of time to do this. And so life does, it's important that I think, you know, we remember that life has a way.

Because the size is determined, the size of the constellation is determined by life. And so Capricorn is this size because it's, that's how much time is needed for these, in this case, changes. And so it's important to also, I think, not get involved in it being concentrated in one specific time period like that.

Because, you know, for Capricorn it's going to be about 15 years. So 15 years is a long time. it's nothing to rush and it's a process and Even though I think we are going to start to see the beginnings of it next year. It doesn't mean it's going to be all at once or it's going to be super intense to where we can't handle it or anything like that.

So, I would say from an astrological standpoint, I think it's good to keep that in mind too, that yes, for sure. I agree that it's the beginning of it for sure. And it could be quite catalytic, but, it's not all going to happen in one year. For example, it's the astrology showing us that it's a process and [00:40:00] it's a very long one.

So basically

Will: like the frog in the boiling water that just, uh, you know, you, you, you put the, the frog in the water and slowly heat it up and before you know it, the thing is boiled to death, but you know,

Athen: I mean, that's kind of negative,

Karen: but basically, wow.

Will: All right.

Athen: is there,

Will: anything else that, that we need to be on lookout? Anything else that you feel is coming?

Athen: Yeah, so I do think it's going to be, particularly economic, and that's because, Capricorn is already the structures, but when we're doing astrology, we also want to look at what the other planets are doing and do our best to kind of read everything holistically, right?

We don't want to take one, transit and, isolate it from, um, The rest of the chart of the rest of the sky. So another significant one is that Uranus, which is the planet of revolutionary change and innovation and technology Is going into Taurus now Taurus as a sign collectively? Deals with resources and we could say the financial and economic [00:41:00] Systems.

Now, it's not just that. It also rules like agriculture and more like becoming more self reliant as individuals as well. It rules food and nutrition, but speaking in terms of like this more kind of Pluto political structures. Yeah, I do think it is going to really start to revolutionize. Or what we consider value.

Uh, so money, resources, things of this nature. And it's going to do it in the Uranus way, which is through technology and stuff. So, I do believe that, probably next year. So the dates with this is probably around the May time, April, May. This one is a little more precise because it's a little bit of a faster planet.

It's actually Jupiter and Uranus who are going in there. They're going to conjoin, have a conjunction next to each other in May. and so this is, really starting what I think is revolution energy and change energy in the financial system. So I do see it probably going both ways. I think governments are probably going to adopt central bank digital [00:42:00] currencies.

We're already seeing that in the works, but I think next year is in this, probably this springtime is when we're going to start to see, that get ushered through. and then personally as well, perhaps people starting to adopt things like cryptocurrencies or maybe become more involved with barter and trade.

Basically taking what we already think is valuable and how we exchange value and starting to revolutionize that. And, um, we're going to see that again both, I think, in the governments, but also within individuals. As well.

Will: lots of changes. All for the good. So I'm excited to see what, the future holds while at the same time holding in my stomach and hoping that it doesn't make it uncomfortable.

But of course we all know that any change is uncomfortable. So you just have to get used to the fact that change is uncomfortable and at the end of the day, it always is for our better. Good. And it's going to happen

Karen: whether you want it

Will: or not. Exactly. Exactly. So, Athen, this has been fantastic. I know that people can go on your website and pull their own charts and things like that.

But then [00:43:00] also you can give them a much more in depth reading than what they can get on on their own. So if someone wanted to reach out to you to connect and to dive deeper into sidereal astrology, what's the best way for them to do that?

Athen: Yeah. So the best is what you were doing, which is just go pull up your chart and you know, it's absolutely free.

There's a chart calculator there. Just type in your birth details and you'll see the sky when you were born. If you do want to take it further, there's a report that I really recommend. so I'll give your listeners a 50 percent discount. On the report. Wow. Okay. So, but, but start just check out, there's even a little mini report. Go ahead and start with just looking at your chart, read the little mini report that comes along with that. And then if you want the full reports, I do recommend it because it's a full.

page printouts of all those other signs and things. So this, all this houses and complicated stuff, it distills it into a nice, easy to read, you know, form there. So, um, so that's great. And of course, uh, there's videos on the website, there's articles, there's [00:44:00] courses for those that want to learn astrology.

Um, so it's all there, masteringthezodiac. com. Oh, that's

Will: incredibly, gracious of you.

Become a member of the Skeptic Metaphysician community for free and enjoy the discounts

Karen: Yes, and our, our audience and I will certainly appreciate that. And I am so appreciative of you because if it was up to me to look up the stuff, forget it. I mean, I would crawl in a little hole and just give up because it's so

Will: complicated.

No doubt about it. Well, we're going to definitely add a link directly in our show notes to your website, skeptic, minimization. com, go to his episode page. You'll see the link laid in directly there as well as to the social media platforms. You can connect with him on, Athens has been fascinating and that the time has flown by for me.

So I really appreciate you coming on and, giving us a peek into a. different way of looking at our astrological science. This is, uh, this is going to be interesting moving forward. my Gemini wife,

Karen: I know

Will: I got some ideas. We'll talk about it offline.

Athen: Thank you so much guys. It's been a great pleasure.[00:45:00]

I really thank you. Likewise.

Will: Likewise,

And a huge thank you to you. We'd love for you to contribute by sending us a voicemail or an email from our website, or leave us a review on Apple podcasts or any other podcasting platform that supports them.

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